PLEASE, stop teaching/telling new healers to DPS

So, my coil group has gone from being unable to clear Turn 4, to regularly beating it. We made several changes to our strategy in order to do this, but one big one was having the healers assist more on DPS. Our group has 3 physical DPS and a single BLM, so while the knights go down easily enough, the soldiers notsomuch. So we have the healers assist by, once their tank is good for the next few seconds, popping Cleric's Stance and laying down some DoTs. We now have no problem clearing each wave in time for the next.

One could perhaps argue that killing things is the job of the DPS, and if there's trouble killing them it's solely up to them to improve. However, the way I see it, every role can help the others. The tank and DPS can help the healers by taking their own steps to mitigate damage via cooldowns and avoiding AoE. The DPS and healers can help the tank by making use of abilities like Shroud of Saints and Quelling Strikes, as well as not going AoE spam heavy where it's not needed. And the tank and healers can help the DPS by doing their part to damage the monster as well.

This sounds like you just had bad luck with getting bad healers :/, as a SCH I can seamlessly jump in and out of CS to effectively heal and dps depending on the fight my team id facing and half the time it is my extra DPS that helps speed up the run or burn down a pack of mobs faster.

It is absolutely good practice for healers to dps when the group is in no danger and no need of healing, im sorry you got healers that gave you a bad impression of what a healer dps is like.

good idea. next time, i will ask the dps do heals while dpsing also.

it's only fair.

regardless whether WHM can dps and heal at the same time is moot.

dps are like idiots, they dont use their healing spells when needed, dont use pots, they just stand there take damage and expect healers to deal with everything, rezzing, debuffing, buffing, crowd control, healing and dpsing while they just erm lets see, dps..

If they are going to dps, tell them to use regular Stone. More mana efficient.

Healers need to realize the stance dance isnt really as effective as they think... Don't get me wrong sometimes you need to do it and go balls out, but most of the time throwing a few stones in between healing without the dance is worth it because you can get an extra attack or two... New healers shouldn't be pressured to dps they need to concentrate on healing... I don't dps unless i know the maps and the fights sometimes you need to save your mp for bigger fights... Going into a dungeon blind and dpsing... Not gonna happen with me healing...

Throwing nukes out without Cleric isn't even remotely worth it. Congrats you attacked with ~200 INT. Absolute waste of MP. Cleric up or don't bother.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Throwing nukes out without Cleric isn't even remotely worth it. Congrats you attacked with ~200 INT. Absolute waste of MP. Cleric up or don't bother.

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More like attacking with 450+ Int.....I've out dpsed so many bad monks and bards as a SCH it's pathetic, and not in aoe situations....on bosses....In fact, you don't even know what cleric stance does do you....

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Originally Posted by ReviiLagoon

More like attacking with 450+ Int.....I've out dpsed so many bad monks and bards as a SCH it's pathetic, and not in aoe situations....on bosses....In fact, you don't even know what cleric stance does do you....

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They said "without Cleric".
You should re-read what you quoted. They're saying it's a waste to dps without cleric on which is in response to Ed_N_Ants who said stance dancing isn't worth it.

^ What he said. I know perfectly well how it works. I annoy tanks every day by making them have to work harder to keep hate. Scholar deeps are pretty amazings.

tell that to the budding scholar who just spent 30 levels as a dps class. now when he unlocks his job he is just supposed to ditch his entire spellbook for 5 spells?? ok buddy

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Originally Posted by Ed_N_Ants

Healers need to realize the stance dance isnt really as effective as they think... Don't get me wrong sometimes you need to do it and go balls out, but most of the time throwing a few stones in between healing without the dance is worth it because you can get an extra attack or two... New healers shouldn't be pressured to dps they need to concentrate on healing... I don't dps unless i know the maps and the fights sometimes you need to save your mp for bigger fights... Going into a dungeon blind and dpsing... Not gonna happen with me healing...

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Oftentimes it's not Stone that you throw out with Cleric's Stance, but your DoTs: Aero and Aero II for CNJ, Bio, Miasma, Bio II, and Shadowflare (And Miasma II if you're DoTing a group). DoTs are VERY efficient in terms of how much MP and time you spend on them for how much damage they do. Best of all, DoTs only care about what your stats are the moment you apply them. If you pop Cleric's Stance, fire off a quick Aero and Aero II, then drop out of the stance, they will keep ticking at the higher rate. You can test this yourself on a dummy: See how your damage ticks are without the stance, then see how they're noticeably higher with it, then see how if you apply them in stance and drop it, the damage ticks don't suddenly drops.

On a side note, this also applies to Healing over Time. A WHM can use divine seal before Medica II and Regen, and a SCH can use Fey Illumination and Rouse before Whispering Dawn. In both case you get enhanced regeneration for the entire duration.

While healing is "in the job description" of the role's name and giving it priority, a healer that does nothing but heal and is sitting around waiting a lot of the time isn't a good healer. Especially the CNJ questline is a really interesting metaphore to this:

*spoiler follows*
The girl you end up looking after refuses to use her magic to fight with, she only wants to heal. But she learns the hard way that there are times when a healer needs to fight as well, beyond "just" being a healer.

Imo this depends entirely on the situation, your gear, the gear of your tank, skills, etc.
If the tank is well equiped, uses his skills correctly, the party doesn't do multiple pulls, etc. - he will not take that much dmg, and will give me enough breathing space to dps.
If the tank needs continuous (or near continuous) healing, I won't bother with cleric stance / dps, because I will not have the time to do any significant damage, and I am even risking to lose him.

I have been in dungeons where I could dot up + bane then ruin, or cast holy / stoneII a few times (have both sch and whm) every mob group before the tank was even at 70%~ hp and before I needed to start healing.
And I had tanks in the very same dungeons where I couldn't allow myself to let go off them, because they took too much dmg.

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Originally Posted by Kisa_Seira

Imo this depends entirely on the situation, your gear, the gear of your tank, skills, etc.
....
I have been in dungeons where I could dot up + bane then ruin, or cast holy / stoneII a few times (have both sch and whm) every mob group before the tank was even at 70%~ hp and before I needed to start healing.
And I had tanks in the very same dungeons where I couldn't allow myself to let go off them, because they took too much dmg.

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Agree totally. The first pulls are the ones where I determine the level (if any) DPS I will be doing. I decide within 5 mins my plan of action.
Sometimes I dont even CS, and simly throw DoTs to assist. Others, like yesterday, I did the full run (low level DR) in CS the complete time. But I have run Copperbell low thru roulette before with a tank that needed care (twas their first run also, and another DPS).

Situation. Always situation :)

Topic change to, Please teach tanks how to use cooldowns so that healers CAN dps.

I don't know if this website will let me post yet (two days of "post limit reached" messages) but here goes. I dps in dungeons, when feasible. I don't use cs though. To me, the slight damage increase to my already low dps isn't worth the extra second(s) that could be used casting a dps/healing spell. And with my controller layout already full of healing spells, repose and mana pots, i simply don't have another place to put any other spell/action.

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Originally Posted by Tourist

....I dps in dungeons, when feasible. I don't use cs though. To me, the slight damage increase to my already low dps isn't worth the extra second(s) that could be used casting a dps/healing spell.....

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As you get higher level gear and your MND stats grow expotentialy, the difference CS makes is very noticable. My MND is over twice my INT. A quick CS dance then makes a huge difference :)
Not to say my INT is not bad on its own...I DoT quick without CS in hectic times when there is a risk...

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Originally Posted by Tourist

I don't know if this website will let me post yet (two days of "post limit reached" messages) but here goes. I dps in dungeons, when feasible. I don't use cs though. To me, the slight damage increase to my already low dps isn't worth the extra second(s)

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My Int goes from 225 Without cleric stance, to 485 int and an increase in potency of spells by 10%. The damage difference is enormous, as in I am quite literally doing double the damage in cleric stance than without it. Not gonna lie, when you see 700+ energy drain crits (150 potency attack), then you might start to see how potent cleric stance really is.

Healers should do their job wich is to heal others not DPS in any way, even if that means faster runs, that only will cause SE to nerf our attacks even more.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

Healers should do their job wich is to heal others not DPS in any way, even if that means faster runs, that only will cause SE to nerf our attacks even more.

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*facepalm* I hope you're being sarcastic and that I completely missed the sarcasm.

I DPS in Garuda EX during the first phase because if your tank is good then almost no healng is needed at all and I've found that in most DF groups, that little bit of extra DPS from healers helps ensure that Garuda goes straight to her second phase (first sisters phase) instead of doing her second jump.

Also, healers, if you're going to DPS, do it in cleric's stance or don't do it at all. The only exception to this rule is if you need to quickly cast a skill like shadow flare where, IMO, it's slow effect is more important than the damage dealt by the attack.

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Originally Posted by sifat_king

good idea. next time, i will ask the dps do heals while dpsing also.

it's only fair.

regardless whether WHM can dps and heal at the same time is moot.

dps are like idiots, they dont use their healing spells when needed, dont use pots, they just stand there take damage and expect healers to deal with everything, rezzing, debuffing, buffing, crowd control, healing and dpsing while they just erm lets see, dps..

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you are my hero... I couldn't have said it better myself.

I am not a lazy whm, and I dps when I can, but I would never put my party in jeopardy.

...those new generation of players.

I get told I suck as WHM because I don't DPS. Even if asked to do it with three healers on Titan, I say no.

If I want to DPS, I'll hop on BRD.

I'm in the party of... "If you can dps and heal like a boss then do it!"

1. Healer that just heals and keeps party alive without to many "shoot was not paying attention almost dead spam heal moments" = I will never complain and throw a commendation.

2. Healers that let party die because they wanted to dps or just are not on the ball = Try to talk and fix problem, or if fails keep on happening disband from party. (When I duty roulette a low level dungeon I tend to be very patient when this happens as I understand some learning is still happening.

3. Healers who can heal the meat shield, cleric stance dps, and eat ghost chili peppers while river dancing = Respect! Will beg you to be mah friend if in same server/stalk you for end game content./commendation.

It's all situational in the end, but just be realistic practice if you suck in lower level dungeons work you're way up and let people know what the expectations are if you are unsure.

I'm relatively new to the game as a healer (just got lv 50 this morn'n woot woot) but when I first started out I had a bad habbit of "forgetting" I was in cs. More often than not ild run threw half the run without noticing it until some one would point out the fact (and not so kindly I might add). Then there was the infamous double tap that Cost me three seconds, that ended with a wipe... Didn't exactly roll over real well with most people... It took a little time to learn how to roll between dps and healer... But the real key is to learn to pay attention... Seriously. White mages have so much potential if you take the time to learn to use them properly.

My rule for SCH is to DPS only if I know I can pull it off without having to heal much, and even then only for non-boss fights or non-healing intensive bosses. But for endgame bosses and dungeons, I will not be DPSing much at all since I know exactly how hard some of those enemies can hit. I won't take a chance for the party to wipe due to my negligence just to speed up an already fast battle. Though for any endgame boss with a 'timer' during them (like primals), if I'm having to DPS, it means the current team of DPS is so bad that I as a healer have to rely on the other healer to pick up the slack while I try to stop a wipe by keeping my DoTs up and using Energy Drain and Ruin.

In low level dungeons, I'll throw in some DPS if I feel comfy doing so.
I haven't hit level cap yet, but I noticed I need to focus more on healing than DPS in the higher level dungeons.
So, yeah... If I happen to see any healers that aren't prioritizing -healing-, then I will gladly ask them to reorganize their priorities.
If they don't, I will leave or vote to kick (if the party wipes a couple times).

I find it insulting that people tend to tell whm's to dps or they are only using half their class. DPS'ing is ONLY valid if the person is skilled enough to do so, or is comfortable enough to do so. Do I add DPS? Sure, IF it is appropriate, or IF I have time and i'm not running out of mp. However, the classification of my class is a "healer" not a DPS. If I am demanded to be dps'ing by a group, they can find another healer, it's that simple. I wont risk having my role circumvented into being a dps fangasm because people can't realize that your FIRST and FOREMOST job as a healer is to do as the name suggests and heal.
Hate me all you want, decide not to play with me, but you know what? no one dies on my watch unless things go REALLY wrong and that is hardly something I can fix by having myself throw out wasted mp that the dps can handle much more efficiently because that is their job.

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Originally Posted by Cassandaria

If I am demanded to be dps'ing by a group, they can find another healer, it's that simple.

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Has literally anyone in the history of ever actually said this? Is anyone in this topic saying this?

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I'll continue to advise healers to DPS, because I always temper it with the lesson that healing takes priority. If they find themselves running into enmity or MP issues, or if the fight is rough on the tank, you shouldn't DPS in those situations. But on trash and weaker bosses a healer can literally find themselves sitting around with nothing to do, which they may as well spend doing some damage.

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As a Scholar, I DPS all the time. It's half my job. Though the important part is that most of my DPS is debuffs and dots.

As a White Mage, I run dungeons sitting at the back of the party doing mostly nothing, because being a White Mage is like having a giant neon sign strapped to your ass and every time you do the slightest thing it lights up and fireworks go off. It's absurd how much enmity WHM generates, and I've found people plenty happy to let me do fuck all for most of the dungeon as long as I keep everyone alive.

There is mentality here that makes it more bias against heals that can't seem to find the skill the dps when they can- As a healer main, I can confirm for you all: there is much rage from dps and tanks if Holy is not used on Plumes, fast WP/AK runs, etc. You can assume what you like which type of healer I am. Doesn't matter since you're focusing on the wrong point and trying to troll.

Back to the OP and his point is that new healers, not new players, are the guilty party in thinking they have to dps. This idea is wrong. It's a warped, brainless THING crawling around in peoples heads that heals have to dps.

We do not have to. No mechanic, boss fight, encounter, primal, raid, trash or dungeon is designed that heals have to contribute in damage. It is NOT a defining line between good healers and bad healers. I laughed at this.

We heal, you're alive. That's all you need to concern about with us.

While I will always DPS when I can, and have no trouble doing so (except the odd minor slip-up where I accidentally forget to disable CS, cough) and keeping everyone alive, I do think it's ridiculous that healers are expected to DPS or they're considered "bad". Worse still that the people perpetuating this are usually DPS mains. Even those who have well-geared 50 WHMs or SCHs and say this, will almost always seemingly have a DPS main.

I am not saying don't DPS if you feel capable, but seriously, if you're not the one currently working your butt off (or not, as the case may be) to keep the party alive, you probably shouldn't dictate how the healer does it, assuming they're doing just that: keeping you alive.

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Originally Posted by sifat_king

dps are like idiots, they dont use their healing spells when needed, dont use pots, they just stand there take damage and expect healers to deal with everything, rezzing, debuffing, buffing, crowd control, healing and dpsing while they just erm lets see, dps..

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lol

My main class is Summoner and I'm always trying to keep up Eye for an Eye or stick on Virus at crucial moments and I think so many DPS classes forget all their alt non-DPS skills and just attack with tunnel vision. I grant that some classes have more support or debuff skills than others, but seriously, WHM/SCH can't do everything.

Personally, I use Aero II + Aero on the toughest trash mob and leave it to that, or add few stones as well if I really want to rush it.

WHM has an absurd enmity gain, especially from the mob. And Shroud of the Saints ability takes far too long to recharge.
SCH or SMN will DPS? Well sure, logical and understandably, but don't assume WHM should spend the slightest time in DPSing.

So far discussion was about if healer can keep everyone alive and speed up the run, but i wanted to say there is one more important thing.
DPS/speed running (usually) is a bad thing for a duty finder team: you do not know those people, you do not know their reaction. I never speak in team chat - because i do not know how other people will react. I often see people not saying 'hi' at the start of the dungeon - the first sign they are in a bad mood.
If healer starts to dps - some people will get very nervous, especially tanker (after dropping to like 30% hp). If someone messed up (healer or not) and dps gets killed (or even team wiped) and they saw healer in the cleric stance - they will easily freak out, or get very upset and start messing up the run.
It is true healer dps can speed up the run and help weak dps to pass some stages, but it often causes a big stress on the duty finder team (especially 49- content, where overgearing is synced and new players are more common).

I wrote it all based on my understanding of people's attitude towards the healer role. So far the most rec i got was from overhealing everyone, and i often got no rec if someone's hp ever dropped very low. 1000 char.

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Originally Posted by lxSch

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Honestly I don't think most healers will struggle even in a DF team, but I do agree. Don't expect a healer to DPS when they're with people they don't know. They want to make sure you can handle the damage, and they can handle the healing. If they're with a group of people they don't know, they can't be sure what the party dynamic will be like.

I have Aero, Aero II and Stone II on <tt> macros and I'll only DPS if the incoming damage is slow. If the tank is tanking heavy hits, I don't DPS. If he's taking hits, but not at a huge rate, I may pop in and out of Cleric Stance, but normally just DPS out of Cleric. If regen is keeping him up by itself, I go into Cleric and go all out for 3 or 4 globals.


DPSing as a healer is fun as long as you keep healing the priority.

Yeah, I normally throw in an aero 1 and 2 and then stone 2 if I have the chance. But I rarely switch to CS. Since so much can go wrong in btw casting an offensive spell then gcd then casting cure.

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Originally Posted by sifat_king

good idea. next time, i will ask the dps do heals while dpsing also.

it's only fair.

regardless whether WHM can dps and heal at the same time is moot.

dps are like idiots, they dont use their healing spells when needed, dont use pots, they just stand there take damage and expect healers to deal with everything, rezzing, debuffing, buffing, crowd control, healing and dpsing while they just erm lets see, dps..

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Lol No~ Dragoons and Monks in particularly are always watching their own hp~
we top up our own health when hit with things like soul drain and on enemies that reflect damage (second boss of brayflox with flame coating)
Using bloodbath we gain health with each hit, we use second wind for attack-stat heals, and Dragoons use Lifesurge to automatically crit+heal up to 10% health in 1 hit.
Monks INCREASE healing recovery by 20% for all in-range party members when they use Mantra
Don't generalise please? k thanks bubi now~

I remember one time getting Tam-Tara on SCH and completing the entire dungeon fine with Cleric stance on and letting Eos solo-heal.

After that I asked my friends if they wanted to try running that dungeon with me going afk auto-following a DPS. They still won.