FFXIV the worst economy in any P2P MMO?

I sold my Morbol Saliva for a crap ton of gil. Why isn't everyone selling their oh-so-common morbol saliva?

ATP items aren't the only things worth anything.

Also, people are making a killing with lower level items. I see iron ingots sell for 499 a piece on my server. It doesn't get much better than that, considering it costs a little over 1k to buy 99 iron ore, if you are too lazy to level miner a few levels.

Given that you can purchase iron ingots for less than 70 gil, I'd say that's a bad economy. . . Seriously... people are so dumb.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Given that you can purchase iron ingots for less than 70 gil, I'd say that's a bad economy. . . Seriously... people are so dumb.

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Really? lol people need to stop buying those on the market XD

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Agreed to be honest, I have 40 Apkallu Omellete in the market, but they are hardly selling these days. Electrum ore became pointless to sell with 1 selling for a whopping 10gill, same for other high lvl mining ore. Yes I am aware it is not a rare ore, but it is kind of sad that when the best ore and the last high levle range before 50 ore is selling for so little. In other MMO's the near highest and highest ore was always valuable, in FF14.. not at all.

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No one can take advantage of the Apkallu omelets given the max stats on them. Maybe if you knew this, you'd be making more money. Tooltips are pretty easy to read.

well, They still have not introduced lvl 80 or lvl 90 items/gear to the game, so lets hope this will help fix things when they do. But if they wait too long crafting will still be usesless since everyone will have tomestone gear by then :/.

It's because the focus of the entire game, is on combat, hence DoH/L not being to be starting classes, or have advanced jobs or higher levelled gear.

If you want the economy to thrive it needs to be diverse, give things that people need, from all walks.
Make potions and food a game changer, crafted gear should have i90 sets make the base stats lower than normal items but offer customization through melding, make elemental resistance actually useful, make it so you can break down clusters into crystal, and crystals into shards, add mini-games like.
- A card game, crafters make blank cards, then once you kill an enemy while that card is equipped, you gain a 15% chance to obtain that monster.
Then make the cards tradeable, make tournaments for cards and offer exclusive prizes.

The problem stems from the fact that there is no specialization in this game, and the economy will only get wrecked further the more time passes since release. Since everyone can level every job and craft (instead of being forced to pick one or two crafts to specialize in), as more and more people cap all crafts and enter the market, prices will be depressed even further. Once the amount of new players entering the economy slows to a trickle the problem will be exacerbated even further; this is already happening.

It's a recipe for failure.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

I seriously doubt that there will be a furniture market at all for the simple fact that it FC housing sndvit would be crazy to think a FC dont have a crafter. So really there is really no point in this economy because the game practically gives you everything. So now my question to SE is: Why even put crafting in the game if it meaningless?

P.S. bump

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Yep. Any FC big enough to even be close to affording a house has plenty of crafters. The market for furniture will be irrelevent until there is affordable personal housing out there for people to furnish. When 2.1 came out I crafted a few pieces of furniture just for fun, now it will just sit there until I give it away. The rich players will never have anything to spend their money on except land until there is actually something rare and hard to get to buy.

Getting rid of the RMT bots would certainly help reduce the high supply of everything. Is it that hard to find them? Yeah I'm sure Rhsisyfks, Jaysrhysikwwh, Bahsgfdhysj, and Whysgvfiks selling shards for 6 gil each are legit players.

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

i would have to say is the Players fault. Keep undercutting and being ignorant to the fact that it ruins the market value of the items.

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No, it's the game. Yesterday alone it dumped four "wrong class" ætherial gear pieces into my bag while I was doing battle leves. (I lost count of how many "wrong class" reward items it gave me.)

Even if it takes you hours to farm or 5k of mats to craft one of those items, its market value is whatever supply and demand settle on. Let's say that an NPC will give me 150 for that item and the market board has been selling them for 10k. So I list mine at 10k, and so do many others now trying to get the most gil to save it for housing. Unfortunately demand can't keep up, most items don't sell, so of course people drop the price. To most of them it's 100% profit. There's no lower limit.

I'm not rich! Therefore, the economy sucks!

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Originally Posted by Hitome

No one can take advantage of the Apkallu omelets given the max stats on them. Maybe if you knew this, you'd be making more money. Tooltips are pretty easy to read.

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Oh please enlighten me then, if you know it so well.

Now that leves are an option for leveling a class I've noticed just how unneeded any crafting is. Every other chest spawn left me with some piece of pink gear that was just as good as the melded HQ i had made for myself.

Crafting isn't all about the money either. When I started it was with the hope that I could make gear for my guild to help them out. In version 1.0 I outfitted most of my LS with free crab bows +3 back when they were BiS. It was how I felt I could best contribute to our advancement in game. If this is going to be a combat focused game I want to make arms and armor, not furniture.

Let's hope that if this thread continues long enough that it may earn a response from a rep.

I see the issue in items not dropping off the market when not sold a problem, also the fact that everyone can see who is selling what.

Example say few or a lot of people don't like how you are selling stuff, so they write down your name and never purchase from that person again.

Items stay up forever also which causes the items to drop down while you get undercut and since there is no drop off option after a few days you basically gotta watch your market and fix prices to people who severely undercut you.

I see no way to fix this because of HQ and normal quality items need to be seen so its crap.

I'm only leveling crafting jobs just so I can be able to meld materia.

There's just too much competition going on right to make it worth the time and effort.

It's pretty sad that an hq lv crafted gear can sell for 10k.

I can gather mats and make that same amount or more in less than an hr

So have there been any responses what so ever from Square about the rapidly plummeting state of the economy or is this going to be another 'head in sand' case where nothing happens until the servers are vacant and we are merging? Repairing equipment by players, botched. RMT battle, botched. Crafting limitations developing player dependance, botched. Housing, botched. Someone at Square must know how an economy works. Can they get 10 minutes on the mic please?

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize.

I'll just say I played DCUO for about a year, and well....

No. Imo FF14 has not reached that sort of "glory" yet. I think it's because it's not free.

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Originally Posted by makii

I'm not rich! Therefore, the economy sucks!

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I'm rich, and the economy still stucks.


Compared to games with a real economy like Eve, ARR's economy is downright laughable.

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Originally Posted by Pines

The problem stems from the fact that there is no specialization in this game, and the economy will only get wrecked further the more time passes since release. Since everyone can level every job and craft (instead of being forced to pick one or two crafts to specialize in), as more and more people cap all crafts and enter the market, prices will be depressed even further. Once the amount of new players entering the economy slows to a trickle the problem will be exacerbated even further; this is already happening.

It's a recipe for failure.

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Nope, even if you have specialization in here, the economy will still be wrecked, because that's not the core of the problem (or indeed a problem at all) - the real issue is that there is NO NEED, NO DEMAND for anything that anyone can make, specialized or not.

Again, going back to Eve, anyone can make anything in that game, and there is zero issue with lack of "specialization", because there are actual demands for goods in that game.

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Originally Posted by Shadex

So have there been any responses what so ever from Square about the rapidly plummeting state of the economy or is this going to be another 'head in sand' case where nothing happens until the servers are vacant and we are merging? Repairing equipment by players, botched. RMT battle, botched. Crafting limitations developing player dependance, botched. Housing, botched. Someone at Square must know how an economy works. Can they get 10 minutes on the mic please?

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I really don't see how they can make crafting worthwhile and fix the economy at this point. Shit is beyond fixing, Level 1-50 gears are useless and super-fast levelling (both for crafting and DoW/M Jobs) make so everyone and their mom can level 4-5 craft if they want. You want to have an accessible crafting system? Good, then you'll have to deal with price tanking since everyone will be levelling it.

Unless they close the game and relaunch ARR 3.0.: This time we won't fuck it, we swear!

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Oh please enlighten me then, if you know it so well.

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IDK...I think you still need to work for it. But here's a hint: what's the 2nd best egg?

You know..the one everyone uses? And every guide recommends? Yeah, try that one.

There is a crafting quest right in Ul'Dah. It calls for one mythril ring and gives 40K exp. If you have a HQ ring that makes 80K exp for one ring (100% bonus for HQ). You can buy a full inventory of them or have someone craft them for you to turn in. Repeat this a couple dozen times and go from level 40-50 in one evening. Everyone and their cousin can easy get a craft to 50 and then mass produce the top level items.

If it is so easy to become a level 50 crafter, anything that is worth selling will soon be flooded with competition and profits go extremely low. I've noticed the housing prices being unequal over servers - I can't even imagine how any new FC or group of people can begin to fathom making enough for a house on a standard server - much less the outrageous prices on a legacy server. I don't know how any FC can hope to have a house unless they recruit a couple hundred members just to afford a housing.

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Originally Posted by Uriahnool

If it is so easy to become a level 50 crafter, anything worth selling will soon be flooded with competition and profits go extremely low.

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Ask yourself this, what is actually worth selling, and why is it actually selling? A large part of what drives the little market activity that we have are actually because of what you were railing against - other crafters trying to level their craft. Take that away, and you'll have nothing left.

"Competition" is not the problem, laying the blame for the economic woes on it is really just missing the point, which is that not only is there no underlying mechanic in the current game system that drives demand for crafted goods, it actively undermines it.



You are essentially a merchant trying to sell sand, to other sand merchants, in the middle of the desert, with SE the only one who has water - for (on my server) 312.5mil :p

It is super easy to cap a crafting class, but so is leveling any job. There is more time invested to get 50 in DoW/M but no added degree of difficulty. Neither of us deserve a medal for our class capping. The greatest barrier is fighting off boredom.
DoW/M are the foundation of this game, and focus should be towards their enjoyment, but DoL/H are paying for a ticket to this theme park as well. Give us a reason to stay.

Completely agree. All T4 materia is nearly worthless, having gone from 200k down to 20-40k or even less sometimes. Any crafted i70 is nearly worthless as well as the price of tome materials since it became much easier to obtain them. The tome items dropped from 30k to 5k on my server almost overnight. Potions have never sold (funny, I tried the best wind resistance potion on garuda extreme, 80 resistance and it didn't seem to reduce any damage), crafted gear sort of sells pre 50 but its all worth like 1-4k, and if you make more than one piece of something people will undercut you massively. The only thing that seems to be in demand is food, and even then it really isn't an amazing way to make money. I never see people asking for melds anymore, and the rare time someone does ask, literally the instant after they ask I PM them and they already have someone. Even shards have gone down, from 30 each to 10.

I haven't attempted to make money since 2.1, I had 800k that I've held on to and my dungeon runs generate enough gil to cover my repairs. I'm buying food that I don't use horribly often, but I plan on leveling CUL myself to eliminate any costs I may have, and hold on to my 800k in case something comes up I need.

Considering the level of scorched earth warfare the game has taken between RMT and Square Enix, we might as well all get some marshmellows and a stick and watch it burn. In for a penny, in for a pound and I really think it's too late to turn back.

Here's what I feel coming from a legacy server.

- There's still way, WAY too much gil in circulation and I'm afraid housing isn't going to be the gil sink we need. IIRC, a good number of us were calling for a complete gil wipe for ARR and I still think that's what should have happened, along with any and all crafting materials as well. Keep EXP and gear in place but wipe all resources (and I say that as someone who purposely stock piled HQ mats prior to the game shutting down) because there were people in 1.0 who had literally HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF GIL.

- Being able to level every craft & gathering class to 50 is a problem. In XI you could only take fishing and 1 other craft to 100. You could get all of them to 60, but only had 40 levels to use up past that so your choice in crafting was more meaningful. With so many people being able to craft any item, it creates an overabundance of goods.

- ATP items were a very bad idea. All craft materials should be obtained through gathering or against certain high level NMs that are rare drops. By being able to simply spend tomes on them the markets have been flooded and the goods devalued.

- Being able to directly see the prices of your competitors is detrimental. Yes people undercut in XI too, but you wouldn't know by how much exactly unless the seller effectively got caught by a low-baller. So instead of looking at the price history and listing for what you think is a reasonable rate and hoping to sell, we end up with a race to the bottom with jerks undercutting to the point where there's little to no profit to be had. Heck most of the end game 2-star HQ stuff is sold at a loss on Excalibur, which begs the question "why bother?"

- Spirit Bonding is tedious and worthless. iLv70 gear is too impractical to SB for profit (and T4 prices recently crashed HARD) and the process takes forever so there's very little turnaround on durable goods. In 1.23 you could generally sell a tonne of weapons and armor and for a good price because there was such a rapid turnaround on them. With the slowed rates (and +SB gear doing absolutely nothing to speed up the process) in addition to all gear being bound now (which is DUMB) there's almost no market anymore for durable goods. Food spiked up in value recently now that we don't lose it upon death, but it's still somewhat anemic compared to 1.23 where Food had an immediate and powerful impact boosting more parameters and for considerably more than the current lackluster versions we have now. It also doesn't help that 99% of all fish are utterly worthless, as opposed to being used for things like Ink in XI (for Shihei).


I could go on but I kinda want to get back to my Relic quest atm :P

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

the real issue is that there is NO NEED, NO DEMAND for anything that anyone can make, specialized or not.

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This hits the nail on the head. Any other issues are secondary to this and it will not be fixed until crafters can make items that people actually want to buy and use.

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Oh please enlighten me then, if you know it so well.

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The % increase on the two star foods is less than on the other foods, and no players have stats high enough for that increase to hit the higher cap that they have.

Coming from PvP based MMOs, this is in my experience how PvP drives the economy.

1. Gear is expendable, destroyed or lost in PvP and PvE fights. That drives you to buy another.
2. Complete gear loot isn't dropped on missions, quests or dungeons. Only money, exp and raw or rare materials. Gear can only be obtained from crafting.
3. This leads to PvP battles to dominate resources, which is needed for crafting, which supplies gear. Go back to 1.

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Originally Posted by Anjian

Coming from PvP based MMOs, this is in my experience how PvP drives the economy.

1. Gear is expendable, destroyed or lost in PvP and PvE fights. That drives you to buy another.
2. Complete gear loot isn't dropped on missions, quests or dungeons. Only money, exp and raw or rare materials. Gear can only be obtained from crafting.
3. This leads to PvP battles to dominate resources, which is needed for crafting, which supplies gear. Go back to 1.

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You're describing EVE's economy, which is fantastic. The problem is that I don't think people would accept losing gear in fights in this (or most) games.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

- There's still way, WAY too much gil in circulation and I'm afraid housing isn't going to be the gil sink we need.

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One time lump sump can never be a good gil sink.

Also, I'd love to see where you get the "too much gil in circulation" from, the price difference of goods on legacy and non-legacy world is rather miniscule at this point.

And no, the gil in people's wallet that is not being used is not "in circulation"

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IIRC, a good number of us were calling for a complete gil wipe for ARR and I still think that's what should have happened, along with any and all crafting materials as well.

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It's what should've happened, if you wanted ARR to be stillborne. Nothing destroys your core support in a MMO as fast as wiping their stuff.

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because there were people in 1.0 who had literally HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF GIL.

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Nothing destroys your credibility faster than this. Hundreds of bil? when the cap is 1 bil? what, did they buy 50 copies of the game and capped gil on all the characters on every slot along with their retainers :rolleyes:

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Being able to level every craft & gathering class to 50 is a problem. In XI you could only take fishing and 1 other craft to 100. You could get all of them to 60, but only had 40 levels to use up past that so your choice in crafting was more meaningful. With so many people being able to craft any item, it creates an overabundance of goods.

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No, Overabundance of goods is the result of there being no demand for said goods. Go ahead, reduce the supplier of goods A from 10,000 to 1,000, but when the size of your customer base is 10, it's not going to make one bit of difference.

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Being able to directly see the prices of your competitors is detrimental.

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I never get this argument, more information, more informed customer and seller is NEVER detrimental, unless you're trying to depend on deception and ignorance to increase your profit margin.

In Eve Online we can not only see the price of the competitors, we also get price and volume for EVERY ITEM GOING BACK FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR.

You're essentially arguing that the economic system of a medieval nation is superior to that of a modern day country, think about that for a bit.

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So instead of looking at the price history and listing for what you think is a reasonable rate and hoping to sell, we end up with a race to the bottom with jerks undercutting to the point where there's little to no profit to be had. Heck most of the end game 2-star HQ stuff is sold at a loss on Excalibur, which begs the question "why bother?"

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Again, that "race to the bottom" is caused by the fact that THERE IS NO DEMAND THERE TO SUSTAIN THE PRICE.

In a working economy, if someone sells a goods for below cost, others will simply pick up and resell the item and net the profit, we don't have that in ARR, because nothing is worth buying in the first place.

If you make a steak sandwich, don't blame the Subway down the street when it doesn't sell because all your customers are vegetarians.

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I could go on but I kinda want to get back to my Relic quest atm :P

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Should go back to your econ textbook first :p

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Originally Posted by DarkRain

I used to sell Velvet for around 1k a piece , you can now buy the Velvet for like 130 gil from Beast tribe NPC.
[...]
Such madness

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What SE is doing here makes me wonder if they ruin the economy on purpose. Yoshi-P always let us know that he is only interested in that kind of drop-focused MMO which plays like a rail shooter, and he has no personal interest in gathering or crafting. I got the impression that crafting only exists now because it has already been here when he got the lead.
Everyone should be aware of the fact that a NPC must ONLY sell basic ingredients which can not be obtained otherwise. And you ensure that consumables really are consumed and not useless. But our director doesn't respect this. He's excellent in marketing, but a terrrible project lead who misses deadlines, redefines goals and his customers are not the gamers, but the stockholders.
This will backfire one day, but I bet Yoshi-P has received his golden handshake until then.

What if they put averages, based on weekly sells, so people could not put anything under a certain amount...

Now I realize that this limitation will upset a lot of people that want to sell things as fast as possible, but it would also give people a chance to sell things for a decent profit. And in turn have some gil circulating.

You would not be able to NPC the said item for the Minimum amount of gil.

But setting minimums on certain items based off of averages that reset weekly well, and at the beginning of a month it would reset completely. People might rush to sell things at the beginning of the month and that might be spike sell times.

Either way this is a very rough, idea, that would need to be refined, molded and worked over by someone that has a much better understanding about economics...but at least it could be a start.

They would need to add more maps with high lvl 50 plus mobs. I mean you can almost solo every map at lvl 45 if your careful. They would have to implement a rare into every single crafting class. They would need to make the gathering classes have more then one node to farm so the botters don't farm them 24/7. They would need to make the best crafting mats drop in the hardest mode of the game which a lot of casuals don't have access to. There is a lot that would be needed to revamp the crafting in this game. A entire new patch if they wanted to get it right. And in the end that cost money and time. I don't see it happening.

Its a perfect storm of a bad economy.
1) Items drop off mobs at huge rates.
2) Gatherers have a high success rate, with nodes that replenish, and can CHOOSE what they want to harvest specifically, rather than allow random chance.
3) Very easy to level crafting classes.
4) Low demand for consumables (potions, food, etc). There's no turn over.
5) Crafted items blow compare to dungeon gear.
6) Crafted items took more time and money to make a sub-par piece than it took to just run a dungeon for the tomes to get a piece of DL.
7) No risk to gathering in dangerous, high level areas.
8) No cap per character on what you can do (i.e., you can be every gatherer and crafter, rather than say XI's only 1 craft to max or WoW's only allowed 2 profession system).
9) Recipes take only a few items to create, but the items themselves are numbered in the 100s and they're all pretty cheap.

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Originally Posted by Olyvar

In a game where you do not have to be a dedicated gatherer and crafter, where you can be everything, there is little demand for anyone to buy crafted items because they can make them themselves.

The ability to be any class is one of the great things about FFXIV to attract people but sadly it is also one of the big problems.

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This is it right here. The fact that you can have every single craft at 50 leads to the market being super saturated. In 11 you had to pick what you wanted to specialize in after 50, and that led to people being "known" for crafting that certain type. Now you can have every single craft to 50 you can make everything yourself which leads not no niches which leads to no profits. In ffxi I was the only one on my server supplying Ram Leather for a good year of game time. I made millions off it, somewhere around 10 million selling a stack of 12 ram leather for 25k. During rmt Christmas I was able to jack the price up to 55k a stack and I could not supply it fast enough, I would get tells asking from people checking the market history and asking me when the next time I was going to put up the next few stacks. It made logging into the game and farming for me a fun time because I knew people needed what I had, and the more I supplied the more money I would make.

There is nothing like that today. With every person able to not only level all gather but also all craft classes there is the instant ability to go out farm your mats and make your item.

This pared with the fact that there is nothing that is crafted that beats anything you can get in dungeons makes crafting useless. Gone are the days of scorpion harnesses, huabergeons, items that were entry level but vital for your job, items that dropped from notorious monsters and then were crafted into armors. Gone are the days of notorious monsters and items that you didn't need for your job, but you strove to get (strider boots, euryots' bow, dryad staff) I really think the will need to re-evaluate the economy in patches as we move forward or else there will be very little incentive to continue to craft. I really enjoy the crafting system they created, but I don't want to waste gil leveling it as there really is no point.

I agree with a lot of the points here. However, maybe this is just the foundation. Say with the expansion (or maybe even a patch) they could add recipes up to the new level cap (e.g., 55), however, constrain it so you can only pick 1 craft to "master." That way leveling other crafts to 50 would still be useful for the cross class skills, but there would also be specialization and therefore limited supply (creating value).

I would love to see them do this, pick a craft, pick a gather, and then be able to master it. You can't level any higher in your other craft/gather classes but you get access to higher tier recipes, would shrink and help develop the current market.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I agree with a lot of the points here. However, maybe this is just the foundation. Say with the expansion (or maybe even a patch) they could add recipes up to the new level cap (e.g., 55), however, constrain it so you can only pick 1 craft to "master." That way leveling other crafts to 50 would still be useful for the cross class skills, but there would also be specialization and therefore limited supply (creating value).

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Think of that from a new player perspective though. Hey, spend countless hours on this trade that will only matter or have any possibility of selling once you get to end game. Too many developers do this. They focus so much on making everything about end game they forget the rest of the journey should be fun as well. If everyone can make everything even up to a certain level it dooms early crafters to frustration and maybe never becoming end game crafters.

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Originally Posted by Shadex

Think of that from a new player perspective though. Hey, spend countless hours on this trade that will only matter or have any possibility of selling once you get to end game. Too many developers do this. They focus so much on making everything about end game they forget the rest of the journey should be fun as well. If everyone can make everything even up to a certain level it dooms early crafters to frustration and maybe never becoming end game crafters.

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I agree but I think SE decided that crafting 1-49 would be pretty useless since you get gear from leveling and level so fast. I think they shouldn't have included gear from quests rather just gil and exp. Then if they just added vendors selling really basic gear every 5-10 levels cheap people could get by, but there would still be an incentive to buy the better crafted stuff.

As long as someone can make a profit (even if it's a small one), the economy is fine.




The economy becomes "broken" when one of a few things happen:

1) No one buys/sells anything (because they can make it themselves with relative ease, OR, because there is nothing worth buying because better things are more readily available via questing/dungeons)

2) People do buy/sell things, but, only at a net loss to the crafters who made the original item


We're not at that point yet (EDIT: On a global/server-wide basis), but, as more and more people hit all-50's... we're going to get there (to #1, which will lead people down the path of #2 when people just start to sell to clear up more inventory space).

I'm interested to see how SE addresses this. Level 50 crafting is not as big of a problem (right now) as a vocal minority are making it out to be (so, people went from making 150k pure profit to 10k pure profit on the rarest items... that's not a broken economy, it's just increased competition... you're still making a profit), but, down the road it is going to be a huge problem if not addressed.

EDIT: I'm not going to touch on pre-level 50 crafting because I think the ship has sailed on that. It's too easy to get to level 50 (which is a completely seperate issue), and there is no need for competent players to spend anything more than trivial amounts on pre-50 gear. There's not a whole lot SE can do to remedy this.


Giving everyone the ability to do everything is great on paper, but, there needs to be some kind of incentive for people to work with each other.

My FC currently has all crafters and gatherers at 50 and a contract system where any member that needs anything goes through us rather than buy anything. It started as an experiment to see if it would help us save money for the FC house but it has ended up so successful no one in our FC has purchased anything off the AH in over a week. That is just us but I would venture a good guess that many FCs are close or doing the same thing. So there is the 'no one buying anything' issue. So now what Square? No one in my entire FC will ever buy anything off the AH again because we don't need to. Now sure, this same situation could have been acheived with more restrictive systems but it would have been much more difficult and taken a lot longer so fewer would have done it. Now as easy as it is, this will become the norm, not the exception.