Letter to all bards about Mages Ballad

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12-09-2013, 09:02 PM
BlueMage

OH NO! SOMEONE IS SUGGESTING THAT *SOMETIMES* BARDS PRESS A BUTTON OTHER THAN WIDE VOLLEY! BRING OUT THE TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS!
12-09-2013, 09:08 PM
Viridiana

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMage

OH NO! SOMEONE IS SUGGESTING THAT *SOMETIMES* BARDS PRESS A BUTTON OTHER THAN WIDE VOLLEY! BRING OUT THE TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS!

It's not so much that he's suggesting BRD use an ability, it's that he seems incapable of suggesting it without making people want to punch his face. >_>
12-10-2013, 01:25 AM
Zellata

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Over 2 BLM rotations:

With Ballad up: Fire3>Flare>Bliz3>Fire3>Flare>Bliz3 will produce 1400 potency of damage in 22 seconds. In that time 9 Wide Volleys will produce 792 potency of damage. That's 2192 potency over 9 GCD's (243 potency per GCD). 2192 potency in 22 seconds is roughly 100 potency per second. The BLM needed to cast 6 times.

With Requiem up: Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2>Fire3>Fire2>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2 will produce 1679 potency of damage in 28 seconds. In that time you could get about 10 Wide Volleys and 1 Rain of Death off for 1200 potency of damage. That's 2879 potency over 11 GCD's (261 potency per GCD). 2889 potency in 28 seconds is roughly 102 potency per second. The BLM needed to cast 11 times.

You are not accounting for off-gcd skills. While your conclusion could still be correct, the BRD rotation you use as an example is not a normal one (not sure about BLM rotation).
12-10-2013, 01:36 AM
Machazareel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zellata

You are not accounting for off-gcd skills. While your conclusion could still be correct, the BRD rotation you use as an example is not a normal one (not sure about BLM rotation).

He's mostly right about BLM. My rotation may be inferior idk, but I tend to do Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2>Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2. I do this because the increased cast speed from UI3 will also affect the cast time of Flare if done immediately after Fire3, rather than using the halved cast time on a Fire2 followed by a full cast Flare.

His way may be better, though. I haven't really mathed this stuff out, I've just been eyeballing what seems to kill stuff faster.
12-10-2013, 01:42 AM
XNihili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

Bards only purpose is to regen MP for WHM and BLM and PLD .

If they don't do that then might as well take DRG since they have better AOE dps than BRD .

I would gladly party with you, playing Ballad while in autofollow.
12-10-2013, 02:07 AM
AlternativeOne

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

5 mins longer than an average speed run adds up to a lot of wasted time .

Over 100 runs you are spending 25 hrs running WP vs my runs 16.7 hrs

Time is money .

But... Its fun and that what Im all about. Its different and sure beats building relic groups LF tank for an hour.
12-10-2013, 04:11 AM
AvonRekaes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcissus

Honestly brah, why are you in this thread? You havent even stepped foot into the instance, you have no idea what actually goes on in there. I have a feeling you just get your shits and gigs from coming to the forums and argueing with people. Spend less time on the forums and more time leveling up your character so you can have an educated opinion on the matter.

I'm sorry, when did becoming level 50 be a requirement for knowing how to communicate with people? He admitted to standing around and just leaving without even saying what the issue was. Wouldn't he have saved MUCH more time by just educating the bards in the party he was already in to use Mage Ballad? I do not need to set foot in WP to know that the answer is "YES OF COURSE".
12-10-2013, 04:57 AM
MartaDemireux

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zellata

You are not accounting for off-gcd skills. While your conclusion could still be correct, the BRD rotation you use as an example is not a normal one (not sure about BLM rotation).

Yeah, I left off-GCD's out because overall I don't think they would change the end result and I'd rather work with smaller numbers. For RoD and QN I primarily left them out because you can't reliably proc them (15% chance) but did include 1 RoD in requiem because statistically in 10 WV you should see 1 RoD and you'd be able to fit in 11 GCD's in 1 BLM rotation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machazareel

He's mostly right about BLM. My rotation may be inferior idk, but I tend to do Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2>Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2. I do this because the increased cast speed from UI3 will also affect the cast time of Flare if done immediately after Fire3, rather than using the halved cast time on a Fire2 followed by a full cast Flare.

His way may be better, though. I haven't really mathed this stuff out, I've just been eyeballing what seems to kill stuff faster.

I didn't include AF/UI in my numbers (still haven't gone through to math that out yet). The BLM rotation I put for Requiem is based on their natural cast times which should require a Fire II to use up some time before Transpose is ready again. With AF/UI you won't need the Fire II but if you get any spell speed gear or buffs you might find yourself waiting on Transpose's timer and need to fill that time in again.

Not at either of you:
Basically if the fight is going on for a long time due to BRD+BLM being undergeared you'd gain more use from Requiem rotation (possibility in duty finder). But, in a full relic+1 party with everyone in some i90's and lowest ilvl being i70 (normal shouted for speed runs) fights would go exponentially quicker using Ballad rotation due to more Flare uses. Ballad rotation will see higher DPS with the more spell speed you have as well due to having to rely on Transpose's flat 10 seconds.

Edit: I'm now curious if it would be worth it for BLM's to run 2 gearsets: 1 for single target (the crit rate pieces) and 1 for AoE speed runs (the spell speed pieces).
12-10-2013, 05:11 AM
Zellata

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Yeah, I left off-GCD's out because overall I don't think they would change the end result and I'd rather work with smaller numbers.

I think IR and BfB might change the end result, as those can be used on every pull.
12-10-2013, 05:23 AM
Machazareel

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

I didn't include AF/UI in my numbers (still haven't gone through to math that out yet). The BLM rotation I put for Requiem is based on their natural cast times which should require a Fire II to use up some time before Transpose is ready again. With AF/UI you won't need the Fire II but if you get any spell speed gear or buffs you might find yourself waiting on Transpose's timer and need to fill that time in again.

That may well be true. In my current gear (Relic+1/Full DL) Transpose comes off cooldown shortly before Flare finishes.
12-10-2013, 07:09 AM
Luso

Don't expect much from a pug. Be reasonable. You are picking up someone for help don't bash on them. Just make some friends. Practice dungeons together and make it your static. Then there should be no complaints and you'll be hitting those 9min or less wp runs.
12-10-2013, 10:52 AM
Darwyn_Ulondarr

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaozK

How reasonable would it be to use Army's Paeon in a BRD/DRG setup?

Seeing that DRGs deal big AOE damage but cant sustain it for very long.

A good question that I'd enjoy seeing more discussion on. Also, I have a Warrior buddy that claims he likes Paeon's TP regen to keep the overpowers coming. Not even for the enmity/threat, but rather for the damage. Warrior+Dragoon+Bard with Army's Paeon = good times?
12-10-2013, 01:41 PM
MartaDemireux

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darwyn_Ulondarr

A good question that I'd enjoy seeing more discussion on. Also, I have a Warrior buddy that claims he likes Paeon's TP regen to keep the overpowers coming. Not even for the enmity/threat, but rather for the damage. Warrior+Dragoon+Bard with Army's Paeon = good times?

Very well may be good times with the incoming changes to Overpower.
12-10-2013, 02:17 PM
Grailer

Its all good Ill have a L50 Bard in a week or 2 with relic and full DL . Then I can join groups and not play Mages Ballad to see how often I can steal agro from tanks for fun .
12-10-2013, 02:59 PM
Ruri

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

Dear Bards ,

Mages Ballad 30 3.00s 2.50s Free 25y 0y
Refreshes MP of all nearby party members while lowering own damage dealt by 20%. MP is drained while singing.

Use it or find a new tank for WP run.

Yours sincerely , your flash spamming speed running WP tank.

I always ask before the run starts if they want ballad or foe. 99% of the time they want Foe (If the tank is competent)
12-10-2013, 03:33 PM
Grailer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruri

I always ask before the run starts if they want ballad or foe. 99% of the time they want Foe (If the tank is competent)

Actually that would be quite funny if you ran Foe while tank was pulling the first 3 groups . You would probably be dead before tank got to end of room .
12-10-2013, 03:34 PM
Mikedizzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Err. . .it did last I checked. We just can't Battle Voice ourselves for some reason.

It works for me just fine...have not looked to see if the Battle Voice worked or not.
12-10-2013, 03:42 PM
Ruri

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

Actually that would be quite funny if you ran Foe while tank was pulling the first 3 groups . You would probably be dead before tank got to end of room .

I have ran foe the whole run with no issues. Maybe tanks on my server are special.
12-10-2013, 04:48 PM
Grailer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruri

If getting things done more efficiently makes me special than so be it!

Well hate to burst your bubble but you aren't efficiently special .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScBJynlISY

This video shows you a good bard .

Uses Swiftsong at the start , then swaps to Foe after tank gathers mobs .
Then switches to Ballard after mobs are dead .

This is all I ask , Simple really , but all I get is bad bards making excuses .
12-10-2013, 05:13 PM
C-croft

I guess I don't understand. Between A BRD, BLM, WHM, and PLD, you guys can't kill mobs in under a minute? I thought you run to last bird smash face, gather all sealife to door, down tonberries while sleeping, activate boss, lockout sealife. Next portion, you run everything to second floor, smash face. next group to tonberries, unlock door, lock out ghost thing and skele. boss, then final run, smash face tonberry king.

I always thought the combination of holy spam, flare and BRD AoE was enough.
12-10-2013, 08:05 PM
Cha0zb0rn

as a blm I actually gotta support the OP even though he might have a terrible attitude. bards sole purpose is to support the grp during wp speedruns and manasong keeps my blizzard 3->Fire 3->flare rotation going which definatly deals WAY more dmg then a bard looses during this time. it's not only about the pala spamming flash (and no u can't hold aggro against a mage spamming 4-5 flares in rapid succession with a riot blade combo). and yes, it also supports whm holy spam during the fights. guess u call it speedruns when u run through wp in less then 15 minutes? sry to say guys but everything above 11 mins is slow ;) and those times are barely possible if bard think they're awesome dds lol

and no, foes song is a horrible choice if u only got a single mage dps in ur group. a 3rd or even 4th flare (via pot and manasong) is a way bigger boost to overall burst.
12-10-2013, 08:48 PM
Exstal

OP's concern is irrelevant since (s)he used Duty Finder and expected a speed run.
12-10-2013, 10:40 PM
Nuffy

It's really not that difficult, foe for aoe pulls, mana song while you run to the next mobs/boss, foe for boss, repeat.

It's really not "necessary" but if your goal is to speed run, then something what I stated above would be considered optimal. You can still speed run and be shotty on the songs, its really only for min maxing your time in my opinion.
12-10-2013, 11:50 PM
ih8tonberrys

I found this thread by accident, i was hoping to find a thread from a bard, who was giving good tips for that class, instead i have found a thread from a gear nazi, who has no idea how to play that class, plus i saw your video, i agree that bard is exceptional, the one thing you will never be. PLayers like you never cease to amaze me. P.S. Its people like you who ruin the game for everyonelse, you think your helping but your not
12-11-2013, 02:01 AM
Bardo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exstal

OP's concern is irrelevant since (s)he used Duty Finder and expected a speed run.

Indeed. /10char
12-11-2013, 02:36 AM
whiskeybravo

Easy.

MP Song Please

TP Song Please

Usually that works.. Though I'm a war and only ever ask for TP. I will ask for MP song occasionally when healing, but for the most part I manage my MP well enough.
12-11-2013, 11:29 AM
BlueMage

Why is a Bard in the party if not for Ballad? Personally, I prefer WAR, BLM, BLM, WHM.
12-11-2013, 12:51 PM
blowfin

Quote:

Why is a Bard in the party if not for Ballad?

Um, Requiem, Swiftsong, Soul Voice, RoD, plus decent AOE if they don't suck.
12-11-2013, 02:19 PM
Grailer

Quote:

Originally Posted by ih8tonberrys

I found this thread by accident, i was hoping to find a thread from a bard, who was giving good tips for that class, instead i have found a thread from a gear nazi, who has no idea how to play that class, plus i saw your video, i agree that bard is exceptional, the one thing you will never be. PLayers like you never cease to amaze me. P.S. Its people like you who ruin the game for everyonelse, you think your helping but your not

I was giving good advice . Play Ballard or I walk .
12-11-2013, 03:48 PM
Livi

I dont need Ballad for my wp sr tanking. Ballad is mainly for whm. Op is bad
12-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Maku

I am going to restate Grailer's advice in a much nicer way. Because unfortunately his way of saying this in such an arrogant and mean way won't actually let people read what he is actually saying even though it is very much a good strategy.

Swift for first pull, switch to Foe after you make it to killing area, immediately do a Rain of Death (this will help with keeping the tank alive if they are not super overgeared and allow the WHM to holy more), IF your WHM is bellow 2k MP and the PLD is below 800ish (just my numbers I use with my group I do it with you can adjust for yourselves) through up Ballad after the pull. If Ballad is not needed then swift song so you can keep up with the (more thank likely) sprinting Tank/WHM/BLM (BRDs can't sprint as much cause of needing the TP to help kill). Single Target down the tonberry. Personally I don't put up Foe here because it dies so fast anyway.

First Boss (after mobs are locked out) through up a Soul Voiced Foe and unload on the boss. The next pull is a pretty long run. There is no need to have ballad up for this pull as the PLD should be full from the boss fight by using Riot Blades and the WHM will have plenty of recovery time while running. So I through up swift Song. Once mobs are gathers repeat like the first group kill.

After last mob dies switch to Swift Song. (Again no need for Ballad here as there is plenty of recovery time). Once mobs are gathered repeat the AoE kill by switching to Foes and unloading (making sure to have Rain of Death up to help the tank of course)

Pudding Boss is the same as the Gobbu. Wait till mobs are locked out to cast Foes (I don't use SV here because I want it for the final boss and we go so fast the timer isn't up if I use it here). Unload and AoE the adds and stuff (I usually only see one group of adds we kill and then we ignore the last one because they usually pop right before it dies).

The next pull is actually pretty short and you may need ballad if your WHM is below the recommended amount (mine being 2k). Again the PLD is probably full or should be from the boss fight.

Rinse and repeat a Group AoE kill pattern with Foe up and a RoD at the start and watch them melt as you BLM LBs them.

Final Boss: right at the start fire circle and then SV Foe. Then get on your Single Target kill rotation. If your group is good (geared) enough the WHM shouldn't need ballad so you can just keep Foe up the whole fight. I usually run out of MP right when the bugger dies.

Grats you just did the best a BRD can do when it comes to things that are not related to your gear. ^^
12-11-2013, 03:55 PM
BlueMage

Quote:

Originally Posted by blowfin

Um, Requiem, Swiftsong, Soul Voice, RoD, plus decent AOE if they don't suck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLKhxjfG03A
12-11-2013, 07:36 PM
ih8tonberrys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

I was giving good advice . Play Ballard or I walk .

If thats the case dont let the door hit you on the way out.
12-11-2013, 07:49 PM
Viridiana

Quote:

Originally Posted by ih8tonberrys

If thats the case dont let the door hit you on the way out.

At least now I know how to get rid of him. . .
12-11-2013, 07:54 PM
ih8tonberrys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viridiana

At least now I know how to get rid of him. . .

I doubt it he will find another class to complain about, and get schooled in the process. Ill say this if i want a really good laugh, ill read his threads.
12-11-2013, 08:03 PM
Grailer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viridiana

At least now I know how to get rid of him. . .

I pray I get you in a DF group , ill walk for sure, so slow the timer will almost run out just as we finish last boss .
12-11-2013, 08:11 PM
Mister-Wonderful

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

I pray I get you in a DF group , ill walk for sure, so slow the timer will almost run out just as we finish last boss .

Rofl, bad and mad. You are a real gem of a player, if I saw you in DF (Who DF's WP SR's) I would promptly leave as doing a slow ass run with you would be more time wasted than waiting 15 minutes outside of DF.
12-11-2013, 08:15 PM
Phai

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailer

I pray I get you in a DF group , ill walk for sure, so slow the timer will almost run out just as we finish last boss .

Whit my FC mates we do our wp sr on a 9-11 min avrage. Its easy and i think most ppl agree whit this.
But when it comes to doing this in DF, u will meet ppl whit diffrent skill, gear and experience, so its kinda unfair to have those demands in DF imo. Even tho i do SR whit friends, its actually nice from time to time to just do a DF run that is calm and at a decent pace, and the fact that i meet Nice ppl there also.

Cant u agree that for premades, its needed to have that Level of preformance, and in DF u need to get used to the fact that its not a 9 min run?
12-11-2013, 08:23 PM
Mister-Wonderful

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phai

Whit my FC mates we do our wp sr on a 9-11 min avrage. Its easy and i think most ppl agree whit this.
But when it comes to doing this in DF, u will meet ppl whit diffrent skill, gear and experience, so its kinda unfair to have those demands in DF imo. Even tho i do SR whit friends, its actually nice from time to time to just do a DF run that is calm and at a decent pace, and the fact that i meet Nice ppl there also.

Cant u agree that for premades, its needed to have that Level of preformance, and in DF u need to get used to the fact that its not a 9 min run?

Seeing as how they need ballad for the entire run, and rage when they don't have it, I doubt they know what that level of performance even is, all they want to do is press flash over and over and if they have to use something like riot blade to get mp back, "bard sucks I wanna be a lazy tank, gimme my ballad."
12-12-2013, 12:08 AM
Zellata

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maku

I am going to restate Grailer's advice in a much nicer way. Because unfortunately his way of saying this in such an arrogant and mean way won't actually let people read what he is actually saying even though it is very much a good strategy.

Your advice has virtually nothing to do with Grailer's request - they want BRD to play ballad whenever tank is running low on MP while yours is a fairly standard way of doing a WP run where ballad is used only when healer is low on MP and is not about to recover naturally on a "long run" pull.

Quote:

Final Boss: right at the start fire circle and then SV Foe.

I am curious - why open up with flame arrow (asuming that's what you mean by "fire circle") instead of Requiem - Battle Voice - normal single target rotation which includes FA?

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