[DEV] Time sinks and satisfaction, a plea from one of your hardcore fans

Hardcore and casual are both terms invented by players. There are no concrete attributes tied to them. Hardcore does not mean players that are better than everyone else. Casual does not mean players that want everything easy. Stop bringing this up.

However, I personally play for the gear grind. I love working towards that next goal, it's what keeps me coming back. This is something that I think would qualify me as a "hardcore" player. Many casuals play for the fun of the game or perhaps the community. Everyone plays for their own reason, it doesn't matter what it is. Everyone enjoys hard or challenging content.

The problem here is that there is nothing worth playing for if you play a lot. Everything is obtained extremely fast and quickly leaves many of us with less and less things to do in game. If you didn't like the way XI did something, how would YOU improve it? We get it, not everyone likes to sit in one spot for hours for a pop. I have yet to see any real solutions from any casual players to improve this other than "instance this, or make things spawn faster." Those are not solutions, it's a cop out and still leads to the same problem.

FFXIV was marketed as a casual game and should remain one (hopefully that's the last time I have to say that.) That's doesn't mean it can't have content that takes longer than a week to beat. So instead of telling us to stop trying to turn this into a hardcore game, which we're not, share some of YOUR ideas which you think would please everyone.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

The problem here is that there is nothing worth playing for if you play a lot. Everything is obtained extremely fast and quickly leaves many of us with less and less things to do in game. If you didn't like the way XI did something, how would YOU improve it? We get it, not everyone likes to sit in one spot for hours for a pop. I have yet to see any real solutions from any casual players to improve this other than "instance this, or make things spawn faster." Those are not solutions, it's a cop out and still leads to the same problem.

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Sitting around rewarded people for having lots of free time to play the game and for being able to schedule their lives around pop windows. That's not fun, and instead leads to the game intruding on real life.

Instancing content means you can still grind for gear, but don't have to worry about in-game conditions like pop windows. I've done gear grinding before, and we would schedule one to three nights a week to raid. That's doable, long term and can keep us busy for a prolonged amount of time. It's not a cop out, its a solution that keeps people busy while giving those of us who otherwise would not an actual shot to see content.

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FFXIV was marketed as a casual game and should remain one (hopefully that's the last time I have to say that.) That's doesn't mean it can't have content that takes longer than a week to beat. So instead of telling us to stop trying to turn this into a hardcore game, which we're not, share some of YOUR ideas which you think would please everyone.

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Rep grinds would be one way to do it, as it introduces pacing. The Shattered Sun Offensive base near the end of TBC and Argent Tournament Grounds near the end of WotLK went a step further by making rep grinds that were paced through daily quests.

They actually have a decent opportunity to do this with the introduction of the jobs, provided they actually decide to back the jobs up with lore. I figure a group, organization, order or something like that for each job to work your way up through rep and job-related quests. Granted, that is very unlikely given what we currently know, but still...

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Rep grinds would be one way to do it, as it introduces pacing. The Shattered Sun Offensive base near the end of TBC and Argent Tournament Grounds near the end of WotLK went a step further by making rep grinds that were paced through daily quests.

They actually have a decent opportunity to do this with the introduction of the jobs, provided they actually decide to back the jobs up with lore. I figure a group, organization, order or something like that for each job to work your way up through rep and job-related quests. Granted, that is very unlikely given what we currently know, but still...

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Hi Duelle,

I never played the games you speak of, but wouldn't the early info we have on the Grand Companies of Eorzea be something like what you're talking about? They hint at doing various quests for the Grand Companies and eventually earning rare Items / Equipment, etc. (so possibly reputation / ranks as you work your way through the Company you choose.)

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

There's a reason timesinks have a negative meaning attached.

Sitting around waiting for the Valkurm Emperor wasn't work. It was waiting around like a dingbat, when you could have been doing something else. Once he actually spawns and you get the pull, he isn't even that hard to kill. Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...

A better way of introducing meaningful content would be to create quest lines where you have to solve some difficult puzzle(maybe as a party or a community), or defeat several challenging enemies within a set time limit as well as other limits like no magic or something, or maybe just a boss rush dungeon to finally reach a chest or have a chance to lot for some rare gear. The reward should be in a challenging fight coupled with a cool piece 'o loot, and maybe some storyline or something.

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I agree. Pride and reputation should be built from completing difficult tasks, and not simply putting in more time than other players.

Sure, camping an easy (but hard to claim) NM in ffxi showed dedication, but it took little skill and was often so tedious that it made me question if I was still playing a game. Some days I felt as though I had taken on a second job for which I would never be paid.

I know not everyone enjoyed it as much as me, but I really liked Nyzul Isle & Sea access (pre-nerf) in FFXI. I hope that similar content will be added to FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Rep grinds would be one way to do it, as it introduces pacing. The Shattered Sun Offensive base near the end of TBC and Argent Tournament Grounds near the end of WotLK went a step further by making rep grinds that were paced through daily quests.

They actually have a decent opportunity to do this with the introduction of the jobs, provided they actually decide to back the jobs up with lore. I figure a group, organization, order or something like that for each job to work your way up through rep and job-related quests. Granted, that is very unlikely given what we currently know, but still...

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Can you elaborate a little more on this? I'm familiar with the term Rep Grinds but I don't know exactly what they were.

I never really got into WoW. I had a number of rl friends who played it, but after trying it myself I quickly realized it wasn't for me, for various reasons. I'm interested to hear more about this, if you would be so kind.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

I never played the games you speak of, but wouldn't the early info we have on the Grand Companies of Eorzea be something like what you're talking about? They hint at doing various quests for the Grand Companies and eventually earning rare Items / Equipment, etc. (so possibly reputation / ranks as you work your way through the Company you choose.)

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Then thing is that there's only three grand companies and we are somewhat bound to one for the most part. Once you're done with them there's not much else.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Can you elaborate a little more on this? I'm familiar with the term Rep Grinds but I don't know exactly what they were.

I never really got into WoW. I had a number of rl friends who played it, but after trying it myself I quickly realized it wasn't for me, for various reasons. I'm interested to hear more about this, if you would be so kind.

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Well, the various interests in the game had a faction attached to it that you could grind rep with by doing things relevant to those factions. Like in vanilla WoW the events in Silithis involved the Cenarion Circle, which was a group of Druids leading the charge into that zone's raid instance. Doing quests for members of the CC gave you reputation with that faction, larger amounts for one-shot quests, and small amounts for repeatables (only when done the first time), and tiny amounts (5 or 10 points) for killing members of the Twilight's Circle (which are the antagonists in that region).

The scale went from Hated to Hostile to Unfriendly to Neutral to Friendly to Honored to Revered to Exalted. Took around 84,000 rep points to go from Hated to Exalted, and one-shot quests at most usually gave between 100-250. Granted, most factions usually had you start at Unfriendly or Neutral, though things like the Brood of Nozdormu (a faction of dragons that were also involved in Silithis) started at Hated and would attack you on sight until you killed enough enemies inside the raid instances to reach Neutral, at which point they would actually talk to you (since aside from the "Only One May Rise" quest and some repeats, there was no other way to gain rep with them).

Dungeons in TBC also had rep attached to them as you usually had one faction that was involved in three dungeons, and killing things in those dungeons gave you rep with that faction (like all three Hellfire Citadel dungeons gave rep with Honor Hold). WotLK introduced Championing, in which you did entry quests to get you to Friendly with a faction and had to grind the rest of the way to Exalted by killing mobs and bosses inside any 5-man instance so long as you're wearing that faction's Tabard.

What I call quest-hub reputation is what I spoke of when I mentioned the Shattered Sun base and the Argent Tournament Grounds. Both of these were hubs for daily quests, and you could only gain rep for their respective factions through the daily quests available at those two hubs. Since you started at neutral, you usually have two or three quests open to you at the most, but more opened as your rank with that faction went up.

Lastly, you have raid instance reputation, which I've only seen first-hand with the Violet Eye and the Ashen Verdict. You could only get rep with them by killing enemies in Karazhan/Icecrown Citadel, and the latter played a hand in putting together the Legendary (equivalent of Relic/Mythic) Great Axe, Shadowmourne.

Those two also had a neat little thing to encourage you to continue grinding mobs in those instances: an upgradeable ring that became stronger the higher your reputation rank was with either faction.

Note: To clarify, I don't want SE to copy this formula word for word, but to take the general idea, give it their own twist and go from there.

Very interesting. The whole concept almost reminds me of a mix between FFXI's fame system and GTA's gang loyalty system, except more rewarding. I especially like the Hostile > Friendly aspect of it, generally speaking.

I would love to see something like this in XIV, though implemented in their own way of course. Provided the rewards are always worth the effort, I can see myself spending a lot of time with something like this. Thank you for the clarification, Duelle.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Very interesting. The whole concept almost reminds me of a mix between FFXI's fame system and GTA's gang loyalty system, except more rewarding. I especially like the Hostile > Friendly aspect of it, generally speaking.

I would love to see something like this in XIV, though implemented in their own way of course. Provided the rewards are always worth the effort, I can see myself spending a lot of time with something like this. Thank you for the clarification, Duelle.

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I'm fairly certain it was hinted that the 3 grand companies were going to have a sort of reputation system attached to them. Completing quests with each company is supposed to raise your standing with them. Although I believe it's going to be more similar to FFXI's campaign ranking system than WoW's reputation system.

Only read the OP, but as a casual player I'd love to see some type of magian trial system put into FFXIV. We have NMs, we have a huge game world with tons of monsters some people have never even seen, etc. Give us some magian trials to run to those random corners and grab some nice loot. Maybe do something like this for class-specific gear. :o

There is nothing wrong with open world NM's at all. They only have to remove the windows and change the mobs pop timer to an static 27 hr pop or something like that so the mob rotate thru different game times. MeowyWowie NEVER even suggested pop windows even be brought back she just wanted some open world NM's to hunt if you do it this way no one has to stand around.

Every time someone says open world NM's someone always comes running in saying i don't wanna stand around She never stated anything about standing around

what if.... they had no claiming system, everything could be killed by anyone, and if you wanted to have something just for your party, you would do an instance.

in that scenario, would you guys still want open world NMs?

just curious since some question in the last poll implied they were giving that some thought

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Originally Posted by Firon

There is nothing wrong with open world NM's at all. They only have to remove the windows and change the mobs pop timer to an static 27 hr pop or something like that so the mob rotate thru different game times. MeowyWowie NEVER even suggested pop windows even be brought back she just wanted some open world NM's to hunt if you do it this way no one has to stand around.

Every time someone says open world NM's someone always comes running in saying i don't wanna stand around She never stated anything about standing around

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This is one part that I feel should really be emphasized in terms of NMs. I'm fairly sure everyone would be happy with no mini windows, instead just make them straight pops exactly at the time they're due. This way nobody sits around doing nothing while waiting for a pop.

One thing I find funny is Dodore's pop conditions. I don't think I've heard anyone complain about them. I actually remember hearing things along the lines of "Oh, that sounds pretty cool" (not a direct quote from anyone, just a generalization.) Specifically, I'm speaking of the Miasma weather. It seems if SE masks mini windows as an environmental aspect of the game then nobody seems to care lol. Well guess what, they're still mini pop windows. How many of you have waited for extended periods of time for the miasma to pop?

The point is, SE can make long re-pops without having us sit in one place for hours doing nothing. To make it even more accessible to everyone, they could incorporate the game's calender into pop conditions.

For example, a rare NM can spawn only during the 11th month, and only every 5 game days. So on the 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th, 25th and 30th of the 11th month this NM will spawn. That gives us 6 spawns roughly every 2 weeks. Everyone knows when it's due, so you never have to go get a ToD or anything. And it keeps the loot rare.

Keep in mind that NMs are not the only way of giving us long term goals. But also remember that there are many people who loved them. To completely say no to them is just unfair.

Regarding Physic's post, I don't think I'd like that type of claiming system or lack thereof. I'm sure you find varying opinions from all types of players, though. In a game with no PvP, there needs to be some competition and for many, claiming was fun for them. Though the opposite can be said for others.

Regardless, SE already stated that there are changes underway. Judging by the last producer's letter, it seems we will be seeing some of these changes in 1.18. So I'm taking a wait & see approach on this one as I highly doubt they will change the system more than once.

And one last thing, I'm a guy lol. I just find Miqo'te more visually appealing than the rest of the races :p

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Originally Posted by Physic

what if.... they had no claiming system, everything could be killed by anyone, and if you wanted to have something just for your party, you would do an instance.

in that scenario, would you guys still want open world NMs?

just curious since some question in the last poll implied they were giving that some thought

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Personally, heck no.

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Originally Posted by Mack

Personally, heck no.

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9. If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you be in favor of a system that rewards skill, experience, and loot only to the party that first deals damage to an enemy? Or would you be in favor of skill, experience, and loot being distributed amongst all parties that contributed to an enemy’s defeat? *
Skill, experience, and loot going to only the first party to deal damage to an enemy.
Skill, experience, and loot going to all parties taking part in an enemy’s defeat.


yeeaa that was the question, after trying it out in CO, its actually pretty fine, then they make the roaming bosses like open missions. In this case pop windows might not be as bad, and boss fights could be like armies versus a horde. basically like campaign in the over world.

I think the way EQ2 does endgame works well. Has raid instanced progression with ezmode and hardmode settings and a few open world bosses. Gives people without alot of time to do raids at their leisure while giving players with more time something extra to do. Usually the world bosses had droppable loot similar to the instances or a few unique items here and there.

Let's be real, MMO's are timesink incarnate and the people with more time are always going to progress faster/have better loot than someone who doesn't. This even applies to WoW when content first comes out.

Eq2 has lots of Tier raid instances , and some "bosses" in outside zones ("gods") , drop similar loot but usually the looks is cooler (weapons and shoulders 4 example) ...48h respawn if im not mistaken ....anyway Guilds share them or the loot , good comunity if u ask me :P

FFXI ? full of claim bots ~~

In regards to Phsyic's post:

The pole results were pretty even among players, 47.5% to 52.5% with the 2nd option in the lead. So that tells us that we're pretty equally divided on the subject.

However, Yoshi made a big mistake by not giving us the option of keeping the current system. I voted for the first option, only because you had to pick one. If keeping the current system was an option, but improving upon it (claiming more than 1 mob for example,) I would have went with that.

One could also draw the conclusion that this also skewed more votes towards more instanced content than open world content, simply because open world content is instantly made easy-mode with a lack of a claim system. Yet another reason why his lack of options was a mistake.

Looking back at it now, it kind of has me worried with what's to come. If the claiming system is changed to what you are suggesting, which it very well may be, then suddenly all open world content seems stale and boring, requiring barely any skill at all because you can just throw countless bodies at it. I certainly hope this is not the case. I'm also fairly certain that when people asked to fix the claim system, this was not exactly what they had in mind. Instancing all the challenging content makes for an extremely lifeless MMO in my opinion.

if they are changing how CC works (sleep ect) and let partys claim more than 1 mob.....there will be problems in non-instanced bosses , no doubt

Yoshi said in a letter following up on that poll that he regreted not having a third option to let anyone take part in a fight, but only let loot drop to the party who attacked first.

Here's a quote from Letter from the producer V:

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I'm kicking myself for not having put in a third option combining the other two: Skill and experience going to all parties, and loot going to only the first party to deal damage to an enemy.

I personally think that this mixed option (skill/experience to all involved parties, loot to only the claiming party) makes sense.

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What they ultimately decided on, who knows, but it seems like they will probably head in this direction.

Yes, I know that Zetsumei. But the point was that each option for both questions 9 and 10 were based on the notion that the current claim system would be done away with. That includes the third option you mentioned.

Who's to say that everyone wanted the current system scrapped? I know I don't. But I was forced to pick on of the options available, even though I don't agree with any of them.

And just for the record, I also chose more instanced content because of this change. Not because I like instanced content. But because with something like this, the only challenging content is pretty much left for instances. Again, forced to make a decision that I personally don't even agree with.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Yes, I know that Zetsumei. But the point was that each option for both questions 9 and 10 were based on the notion that the current claim system would be done away with. That includes the third option you mentioned.

Who's to say that everyone wanted the current system scrapped? I know I don't. But I was forced to pick on of the options available, even though I don't agree with any of them.

And just for the record, I also chose more instanced content because of this change. Not because I like instanced content. But because with something like this, the only challenging content is pretty much left for instances. Again, forced to make a decision that I personally don't even agree with.

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1 claim system is really bad for parties, first claim for loot is also kind of bad.
I would assume skill will be split amongst the parties based on damage dealt or damage recieved, and i would assume open world bosses/engagemenst would be built around a lot of people, extremely large hp pool, able to call minions, maybe boss level minions, etc.
most systems also have some form of ranking system for such open world events/nms for which team is the most useful.

Outside claiming just causes problems like original EQ had where multiple guilds rushed boss mobs and whoever did the most damage got the drop. 90% of the time a GM had to intervene because the other guilds that didn't do the most damage cried about it.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

When you camped Valkurm Emperor for a week straight, hours on end with no drops. Then one day you log on and he is hovering right in front of you, unclaimed, you grin to yourself and begin to kill him for upwards of the 30th time and it happens, "You find a Empress Hairpin on the Valkrum Emperor." Within seconds you're screaming in your LS "OMFG I GOT IT!!!!! WOOOOO!!11!!!1!!" Your THF and NIN were good to go all the way to 70 now. Again, well worth the time and effort you put into it.

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I disagree with you that it was worth the time. But that's only because I'm looking at it from the perspective of one week of your life. I know there are some gamers who are willing to game to such a degree that casting an entire week of their lives for one virtual item sounds like the best possible thing they could possibly do with their lives. I have gamed for an entire week before, but for me I'd have to have a great variety of experiences over that week.

Standing aside from judging you, I think the only time sink I support is something like Nyzul Isle weapons. Something where you have an incredible amount of challenges that are very rewarding for short term play but long term is a big time sink. Since people like you are in it long term all-in anyway, I think you should be rewarded for your time. However, it is a videogame and the idea that the best weapons in the game are reserved for only those who can put such an extraordinary amount of time in the game that it requires leaving other aspects of human life behind makes me uncomfortable. So, if you agree with me what do you propose would satisfy you long term players other than having the best gear? Is there another possible reward of your time you can think of?

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Originally Posted by Ava

Only read the OP, but as a casual player I'd love to see some type of magian trial system put into FFXIV. We have NMs, we have a huge game world with tons of monsters some people have never even seen, etc. Give us some magian trials to run to those random corners and grab some nice loot. Maybe do something like this for class-specific gear. :o

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I think magian trials were another brilliant system in FFXI for rewarding those who liked the long term chase. Incremental tasks makes sense for incremental upgrades. I'm sure this system will make it's way to FFXIV once the game matures. It looks like we're basically getting Campaign and I suspect every system from FFXI will make its way over.

O.Kote 1/32......... !$!$!$!$!$ LAME

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

O.Kote 1/32......... !$!$!$!$!$ LAME

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And they were still the best WS hands at 75 for most situations. The fact that you could obtain them at such a low level made them even better. Why shouldn't they take time to get. I used to camp deggi and domi with 2 friends often and we barely missed claim, even with all the rmt. Made tons of gil, had tons of fun, and pissed off tons of RMT (not to mention got quite a few banned for hacking.)

If you didn't feel like camping the NMs you could have bought them easily. If you weren't good at making gil, then that's another story.

To Neptune:

For me personally, I play for the gear grind so I can't really comment on why others play. I don't have as much time to play XIV as I did XI, but it's still a decent amount. But basically, besides story progression, unlocking abilities, and playing with friends, yea, gear is why I play. I just don't want it all thrown at me like it currently is, that's all.

Gear-grind is so simplistic.

Im not saying games shouldnt have it, because even in IRL people gear-grind. Um, hello, fashion much?

But the point is, the game shouldn't focus JUST on that. There are ways to make meaningful content without just dangling carrots in front of people to get them to run a treadmill for five years and milk subscriptions from it.

When I look at games like ArcheAge, there seems to be more avenues of gameplay which reward both types of player. People who invest a lot of time can still gain more than casual players, but the game design doesn't just flat-out exlude them altogether. Sure there is still gear-grind, but there is also territorial control and house-building and so on and so on. People can invest a lot of time into managing guilds and striving for supremacy/glory in this way without the feature impinging greatly on anyone else's playstyles.

If it sounds like Im going off topic, im not. You see, there are natural time-sinks and then there are imposed tink sinks. Natural time sinks come about as an incidental byproduct, like, for example, organising guilds and dealing with politics. Only a few people who play often enough can really handle the time-sink that is managing a guild efficiently. Farming resources for crafting/house-building is another natural timesink.

But when you have game-developers consciously deciding to implement time-sinks just to string players along for no other reason than to milk them for all they're worth (and perhaps give elitist no-lifers something to strive for), the game becomes exlusionary to an entire demographic, and also not very much fun even for the demographic it retains.

There are so many ways to reward people for investment than gear. Testing players' patience and using boredom as a deterrant to the best gear does not make the game an enriching experience for any of the players involved, even those who would succeed at it.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Gear-grind is so simplistic.

Im not saying games shouldnt have it, because even in IRL people gear-grind. Um, hello, fashion much?

But the point is, the game shouldn't focus JUST on that. There are ways to make meaningful content without just dangling carrots in front of people to get them to run a treadmill for five years and milk subscriptions from it.

When I look at games like ArcheAge, there seems to be more avenues of gameplay which reward both types of player. People who invest a lot of time can still gain more than casual players, but the game design doesn't just flat-out exlude them altogether. Sure there is still gear-grind, but there is also territorial control and house-building and so on and so on. People can invest a lot of time into managing guilds and striving for supremacy/glory in this way without the feature impinging greatly on anyone else's playstyles.

If it sounds like Im going off topic, im not. You see, there are natural time-sinks and then there are imposed tink sinks. Natural time sinks come about as an incidental byproduct, like, for example, organising guilds and dealing with politics. Only a few people who play often enough can really handle the time-sink that is managing a guild efficiently. Farming resources for crafting/house-building is another natural timesink.

But when you have game-developers consciously deciding to implement time-sinks just to string players along for no other reason than to milk them for all they're worth (and perhaps give elitist no-lifers something to strive for), the game becomes exlusionary to an entire demographic, and also not very much fun even for the demographic it retains.

There are so many ways to reward people for investment than gear. Testing players' patience and using boredom as a deterrant to the best gear does not make the game an enriching experience for any of the players involved, even those who would succeed at it.

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If you've actually been following this thread you would know that gear grind is not the main focus. I simply stated why I play. Does that mean I expect everyone else to play for the same reason? No, and I also made that perfectly clear, or so I thought.

Duelle offered a suggestion borrowed from WoW, which isn't necessarily a gear grind, but acts to keep players busy. There are a number of other good suggestions as well. Why does it matter to you why others play?

Also, lol @ the elitst no-lifer comment. The same can be said for anyone that plays any amount of any video game, or spends their time on forums. It's by no means true nor does it help your argument in the slightest. Please keep this type of BS name calling out of my thread, kthx.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

To Neptune:

For me personally, I play for the gear grind

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Gear-grind is so simplistic.

There are so many ways to reward people for investment than gear. Testing players' patience and using boredom as a deterrant to the best gear does not make the game an enriching experience for any of the players involved, even those who would succeed at it.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

If you've actually been following this thread you would know that gear grind is not the main focus. I simply stated why I play. Does that mean I expect everyone else to play for the same reason? No, and I also made that perfectly clear, or so I thought.

Duelle offered a suggestion borrowed from WoW, which isn't necessarily a gear grind, but acts to keep players busy. There are a number of other good suggestions as well. Why does it matter to you why others play?

Also, lol @ the elitst no-lifer comment. The same can be said for anyone that plays any amount of any video game, or spends their time on forums. It's by no means true nor does it help your argument in the slightest. Please keep this type of BS name calling out of my thread, kthx.

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In defense of Vesperia, why does it matter to him why others play? Well, it matters because what makes you happy makes him unhappy. So you have competing tastes in gameplay. There has to be a way around this.

I think you, in fact, do not play for the gear grind. You play for the sense of satisfaction after a long, memorable journey and then a greater challenge after that. I think we can all agree that that is something we all wouldn't mind being added to the game.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

In defense of Vesperia, why does it matter to him why others play? Well, it matters because what makes you happy makes him unhappy. So you have competing tastes in gameplay. There has to be a way around this.

I think you, in fact, do not play for the gear grind. You play for the sense of satisfaction after a long, memorable journey and then a greater challenge after that. I think we can all agree that that is something we all wouldn't mind being added to the game.

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That's a good way of putting it now that you mention it. I certainly do enjoy finally beating a chain of difficult missions or completing a dungeon. Though, for me, the gear grind is still a large part of it. The two usually go hand-in-hand.

And in my defense, I can say the same thing about the content Vesperia enjoys. Many people like the quick re-spawn, quickly rewarding NMs we have now. (NMs are just an example as its the only content we have at the moment.) Me? Not at all. I think of it as wasted development time because it's completed so quickly.

Don't misunderstand though. If others like it, more power to them. SE should keep adding content like this. But there's still nothing in it for me.

Problem with that content is that it's over so quickly as to be a waste of time. MMO endgame longevity is based off repeatable content whether its faction grinding, pvp, or raiding. Those NM's aren't repeatable. Once you have what you want in the miniscule amount of time it takes, it's over.

That's not to say that NMs can't be constantly rewarding with continued camping.

My favorite NM in FFXI by far was Sozu Rogberry, the Thief's Knife NM (pre force spawn.) Many people never even bothered to camp him because of his 1-16 hour re-spawn rate. And because they never bothered, they never realized that a 16 hour pop was incredibly rare. 1-2 hours was the most common. His drop rate was also among the rarest in the game.

That doesn't mean I sat there doing nothing just waiting for his pop though. In between PH pops (16 min re-spawn) I was farming tonberries, making 500k-1M a day just from their drops and stolen coins. I was constantly moving around, having fun. The only downtime was waiting ~30 seconds every 16 min. And when that knife finally dropped it was like winning the lottery.

I went 1/25 on my first knife after about month of camping which I kept for about a month. Afterwards I sold it for a hefty 60M (well worth my time, considering I was having fun doing it and also making gil in the process.) I kept camping him until SE nerfed the pop and made it forced spawn and 100% drop, making the knife and my favorite NM worthless. After that you never saw anyone down there anymore, for the same simple reason this whole thread is about. It was now far too easy to pop him and the drop was made so common that within a few days everyone had one. They effectively deleted this little piece of content with one simple update.

No matter what type of content they add I can guarantee you two things. Someone will love it and someone will hate it. But if they keep a good balance to please everyone then they'll be much better off because they will attract more players. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what SE was going for in the first place?

If they make the game strictly for casuals and only implement casual content then they're doing the SAME EXACT THING they did with XI, except this time it's for casuals. While the game can still be successful in that regard (XI was,) nothing is keeping them from creating the game for more than just one crowd.

From what I'm seeing, this is the main argument:

Hardcore player-base: I don't like casual content. It's hardly rewarding and does not last long. Keep it, but give us something as well.

Casual player-base: I don't like hardcore content. I don't want to invest the time into it. Please don't add anything like this in game.

Fair? I think not. Not by a long shot.

i helped a friend hunt rogberry, they killed iot a lot, it never dropped, they ended up buying it. In a Solo world, its a ok mechanic, but with competition? I dunno, i think the hour spawn NM gimmick is overated, im not saying hand everything to people, but man, waiting around 2 hours kind of sucks when your alone, and reaaaaally sucks when you got competition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

O.Kote 1/32......... !$!$!$!$!$ LAME

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O/100 o.kote try that i just bought cause i was stupid rich but i didn't stop me from camping cause i liked it.

Ouch, 0/100 on O.Kote? XD I had a friend or two that had that kind of luck with Sozu, but Mee Deggi? Altana must have had it out for you. /comfort

Yeah i got a Aegis shield and couldn't get a O.kote.....

Shoulda camped with us, we got them on a daily basis :D Fun times

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Disclaimer: This thread is not about Hard vs Easy content. It's not about any type of player being better than another. This thread is strictly about content that is available to everyone and keeps them coming back for more. Please stay on this topic.

I'd like to take a moment to discuss the topic of time sinks. In this post I will make a number of references to FFXI and also attempt to explain, in my own words, why FFXI was designed the way it was and what it means for FFXIV's future.

Why FFXI? Three reasons: It was the predecessor to FFXIV. It is commonly referred to as being one giant time sink. And FFXIV took one of FFXI best concepts and attempted to improve on it.

When Square-Enix released FFXI they revolutionized a certain aspect of MMOs in general. To this this date, the only other MMO on the market that has adopted this change is FFXIV. It is one of the main reasons I prefer FF's 2 MMOs over any other. So what was this brilliant idea of theirs you say? The ability to level every class on one character. So what does this mean for us, the players?

Well, the most obvious result of this change would be the notion that if you wanted to play a new class, you didn't have to make a whole new character. This allowed for players to become more attached to their avatar. It represented who they were in this virtual world of theirs. It made making a reputation for yourself something many people took seriously, and rightfully so.

With it also came the birth of the subjob and armory systems. Two incredible concepts that, while other MMOs have also attempted in their own ways, are still in my opinion the best examples of class flexibility while still staying within the boundaries of roles (FFXIV still needs a ton of work on the latter.) After all, this is a Role Playing Game.

OK so great concept, but what does this have to do with time sinks? The answer, is everything.

Aside from the fact that many of the best items in FFXI lasted for levels upon levels, they also remained the best option for a number of classes together. For example, when you finally got Homam Hands, your PLD DRK and THF all obtained their best TP hands at the same time. Well worth the time and effort you put into getting them. The sense of satisfaction that came with it always seemed like a huge achievement. When you camped Valkurm Emperor for a week straight, hours on end with no drops. Then one day you log on and he is hovering right in front of you, unclaimed, you grin to yourself and begin to kill him for upwards of the 30th time and it happens, "You find a Empress Hairpin on the Valkrum Emperor." Within seconds you're screaming in your LS "OMFG I GOT IT!!!!! WOOOOO!!11!!!1!!" Your THF and NIN were good to go all the way to 70 now. Again, well worth the time and effort you put into it.

The same can be said for nearly everything in the game. There was a reason the best stuff took so much time to obtain. Nothing could compare to the satisfaction you felt when you finally got your hands on it. Byakko's Haidate, Optical hat, Kraken Club, E. Body, Relic weapons, the list goes on and on. There was always new goals for you to complete, and you knew that if you kept at it you would be handsomely rewarded. You wore that gear proudly as you walked through town. It represented the dedication you put into obtaining it. And in turn it further added to your reputation, if that was something you cared about.

Sadly, this is not the case in FFXIV. When you obtain anything in this game the satisfaction is barely there. I don't think I've ever seen anyone extremely excited when they finally got what they were after. The only thing that comes close is making a +3 weapon or tool, and even that is kinda meh. Nothing takes more than a day to obtain if you really put effort into it. When you do finally get it, it's nothing special. Everyone and their mother already has it anyways. There are no real goals. Everything just seems like your essentially watching a movie and you know exactly what to expect.

For any game other than FFXI and FFXIV I can understand why the instant gratification works. For every new character you make, you have to do the same things over and over again. It only makes sense that items should be easier and quicker to obtain. That's a perfect concept, for those games. But this is not the case for FFXIV.

If you're not the type of player that plays to be the best you can or you don't care about getting the best gear then something like this shouldn't bother you. I'm not saying make everything take time and effort to obtain. There should be plenty of decent and easily accessable options for everyone. But for the best stuff in the game, make us work for it. Give us goals, long term goals. Give us a reason to continue playing, something that is rewarding in both an emotional and material sense. We want to feel like we actually accomplished something sometimes.

Square Enix, your multi-class per character concept was probably the best idea out of both of your FF MMOs. Time sinks like those stated above only work to compliment it. You CAN make this game cater to everyone if you choose to, it's all about finding the balance. If you want to keep any of your hardcore playerbase much longer this is the way to do it.

With 1.18 just around the corner, I'm really hoping that this is something Yoshi-P and the dev. team took into consideration. This coming patch will be the make/break for a lot of players. I'm sure if it's just more of the same, you will lose a very large portion of your hardcore fans, myself included. I mean, the whole reason you copied FFXI's races was to let FFXI vets to feel comfortable transferring, wasn't it? Well, I can assure you they don't want a hand holding, easy-mode, free loot give-a-way MMO. You're doing a great job in a casual sense, just don't alienate the rest of us, please.

To the players: Please like this thread if you agree with me. Share your opinions on the matter. What are your ideas for making this game enjoyable for all players? Soon the battle system overhaul will be complete and SE will begin to pump out content. What do YOU want to see?

Edit: Added disclaimer

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/like

Hope devs read this and think about it....

remember Meowy that the new mmo-gen are lazy and they dont want work hard to get things....

to try to explain why the game would be better with a "ffxi-system" to those guys is demoralizing.

Goog luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drex

/like

Hope devs read this and think about it....

remember Meowy that the new mmo-gen are lazy and they dont want work hard to get things....

to try to explain why the game would be better with a "ffxi-system" to those guys is demoralizing.

Goog luck.

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Lol you are more right than you know. This thread has proved that over and over again. Hopefully the devs are a little more understanding though. Thanks for the support! ^^

Bump.

It's Monday and the reps are back in town. If possible I'd like to see a response from the devs on this.

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Will we ever see any rewarding content that lasts longer than a few weeks or am I just wasting my time?

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It doesn't even have to be in the near future, just in general. Comments from the players are one thing, but something concrete from the devs would be nice. Even a simple Yes or No would suffice.

I've said this on numerous occasions. SE has a talent for taking things from one extreme to the other in their MMOs. It's very frustrating but eventually, it should be ok. With XI there was the extreme forced grouping in order to actually level and then later down the line they implemented more ways for players to solo as well as group for leveling.

XIV should be no different. Right now we're all looking at the extreme casual style gaming that they've so far provided for us. But I'm quite confident that with enough time after the core game content has been fine tuned, they're going to have that extra time and thinking for more styles of players like the hardcore crowd (or no lifers as I tend to think of them ;-P j/k)

Time sinks are great for side content but not for primary content. What I mean is, players shouldnt be obligated by the game or community to go perform some seemingly endless task in order to play the game efficiently. No player should be forced to spend hours and hours on end to complete something the game designers made in order to move on to something more significant to the game experience. And players also shouldn't be expected by the community to go wait and fight for hours and hours for example to claim a NM and pray for the drop you need to be respected in the game.