You can't get into Coil cause they are looking for experienced players only?

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

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People in real life do bad things therefore doing bad things is ok is a terrible justification for anything.

I no longer care at this point but w/e I'll give it another shot.

You are in a prison in China (hey I was born there :D).

They tell you to confess or else they will beat your elderly grandfather up and take away your children's only means of a livelihood (by killing you). You have no idea what they want you to confess to.

Will you tell them: Hey man - lying's not cool. I'm not going to do it.

You are in the United States (hey I live there right now XD).

Your parents 80 year old parents are on the phone checking up on you. Asking what you're up to. Your best friend (who they do not like) happens to be in town and you haven't seen him for a year.

Will you tell your parents: Hey - you know my college buddy Randy who made that joke at that party you weren't entirely comfortable with? I'm hanging out with him! Isn't that great? Yea him being my college buddy for 4 years kinda trumps how you feel about him. Sorry. But don't worry you'll be dead soon: and it won't matter to you any more!

Gee.. The truth can be a really bad thing too huh?

I'm educated on the practice of struggle sessions in China but I thought we were talking about a video game here and I feel there is a universe of difference between being in wineport and being in the cultural revolution.

Like man that's a really tasteless comparison, I don't know how to put it kindly.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

I'm educated on the practice of struggle sessions in China but I thought we were talking about a video game here and I feel there is a universe of difference between being in wineport and being in the cultural revolution.

Like man that's a really tasteless comparison, I don't know how to put it kindly.

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Which is why I gave the 2nd example... One step away from the extreme

If you say that you have never, ever lied, to protect the feelings of someone close to you (or never had to), I am done talking to you because you are obviously lying right then and we will have reached an impasse.

My overarching point is: sometimes people have to lie because they have no other choice. I am suggesting that they are lying because it's the only choice they have in a sea of bad choices.

Another example between the two:

Your professor in grad school has started to harbor ill feelings towards you because of a paper you've looking to publish that has put his life's work in jeopardy. You're looking for a job and in the interview, the company asks if you can get a recommendation from that professor.

Morally bankrupt to use a past letter of recommendation for the purposes of getting that job?

Apparently so, in this universe, I guess.

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

Very terribly done attempts at real world analogies apparently (video games are serious business) , here I'll make this simple for you.

In a game environment where teamwork + strategy = success Lying about ones experience with the content is counter to teamwork and thus hurts the chances of not only yourself progressing content but the rest of the team who is unaware of the situation.

If you enter say coil as a job with silence (lets use BRD as an example) on say ADS, you are expected to silence High Voltage.

However if you've never done coil and you lie to a group to get a spot in as BRD, the group thinking you are experienced (per the lie) will trust and assume you are aware this needs to be done, the BRD in question however (having lied and never done coil before) will have no idea what they are supposed to be doing outside of basic BRD DD / songs.

Does it really need to be explained how quickly the situation will turn poorly at this point?

It does nothing but hurt the chances of success for yourself and the group that was lied to.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Comments that I'm making Video Game Raiding into "Serious Business"

Then, using FF14 /MMO jargon, describing to me how things are expected of you and how you must maximize the chance of success

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Hmm.. you make a fine point. I concede this duel. You have won sir. Jolly good show.

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Originally Posted by ufufu

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

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LOL. I don't know anymore. HoroBoro's gone rogue and is now justifying lying to your PUG by invoking a chinese-flavoured Godwin-law, and not saying the truth about your friendships to your parents. I'll say, for what it's worth, that I don't care what my parents think about my friends. I do listen to their input, but it's my life. lol. I'm out of here, I don't do Godwins. Not even with sweet'n'sour sauce… … *stomach reaction* …
Mmmmmh, sweet'n'sour!! :o *runs to the store* *DEM NUGGETS!!!*

Sorry Horo, but at this point dude, you're clearly doing that involuntary thing you talked about earlier… ya know… the t-word… time to quietly exit, now ; )

EDIT: he posted before. Let's just all move to another thread now. ^^;

It's not really a matter of raids being all that serious or massive expectations of people, in fact it shouldn't be surprising that if you do something with others you assume they'll be doing what the class/job they play entails.

Unless I'm doing this wrong i usually assume my tanks will tank, my healers will heal, and my dps will do some sort of offensive actions on the mob.

I could be wrong however

Experiencing content is fun win or lose when you try with people who are trying as well, why make it any harder than that?

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Says you don't have time to explain, want a "quick run" yet don't care wiping five times on ADS so you can "trigger voice program laugher" and, only then, start trying to find a replacement.

What am I supposed to respond to you?

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We're going to laugh at them if they've weaseled their way in and we've spent 60 minutes wiping, it's almost our right to by that point. If someone advertises an experienced run it's because they really do expect people do one-shot Turns 1 - w/e.

I can assure we do DO care if we wipe, but we can't do much about it once we start wiping because of one or two people, we can only laugh it off, tell them what was going wrong and replace them.

All i'm simply saying is; If you lie, people will notice, it's better to ask them if they'll take the time to show/explain the fight to you, you will save HOURS of not just your time but seven other peoples time too.

If they say 'No, we can't do that' you suck it up and find another group. C'est la vie. We've all had to do it at some point.

lying your way into coil works, and hey its just a pug, there going to wipe anyway cause about half the other people in that group will also be "pro"

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Originally Posted by STARSBarry

lying your way into coil works, and hey its just a pug, there going to wipe anyway cause about half the other people in that group will also be "pro"

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It's not always a pug, it's sometimes a static or free-company who've lost a member or two for one day/week and are seeking a temporary replacement, so ideally they'll be seeking someone who knows what they're doing.

It's not always going to be a complete pick up group.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Any group that is decent themselves will look for other similarly skilled individuals to form a static to run with.

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You would think so, however I was having a discussion with my FC and the guy setting up the raid actually said to me "I would rather have people in full 70 gear because the extra gear more than makes up for a "skilled' player having a misclick." I was like, wtf? Get yourself a skilled player that easily out heals/damages others in 70 gear but in 55 gear and your group will be much better off. He disagreed with me, haha.

People lie because they've been conditioned to through the DF, New on Titan? someone leaves, heck new on any primal and there is a fair chance someone will leave if its a healer or tank. New on WP/AK, someone leaves because they were expecting a speed run through the DF for some reason. If you keep having negative reactions to telling the truth then you begin to assume that you are suppose to lie.

That's too funny. So, the reaction to someone saying I'm sorry we have more qualified applicants, should be lie about your experience and hope they don't find out. You know you'er a piece of garbage right? You took a spot from someone who has worked harder and put in more hours than yourself simply due to your own greed right? That combined with the fact that you are going to be the weak link (if you are the only one who lied about their qualifications) and now you are wasting the time of the other 7 players.

You want to complain that no one takes inexperienced players into coil. Make your own team or join a FC that would like to start another team. If you are not comfortable being the one making the team I think you need to ask yourself why not? If the answer is that your group will fail and everyone will not want to join one of your groups again maybe, just maybe your criteria for inviting players is a little too lax.

So what makes me wonder. If there are all these Coil parties that don't take firsttimers, there should be tons and tons of firsttimers out there that can't find a Coil party. Sooooo, how hard can it be to make a party with those? If the "problem" is this widespread, there should be plenty suffering from this right?

But wait! There's the catch! All these firsttimers don't actually want to go with firsttimers! Nope, they all think they deserve to get carried through by an experienced group! All those unexperienced people are way beneath their awesome level of skill! And voila, suddenly we have a problem how all those Coil groups are meanies that won't take them!

I'm in 2 LS' for Coil myself. You almost never see people ask for experience there. Only when it's a static that needs to replace one person and doesn't have much time. But you also see plenty of statics who are missing one member and don't mind taking a newbie, as long as he shows he's willing to learn. Those LS are mainly for people who beat Titan, got their Relics and now want to go into Coil. There are some general expectations of course, like checking a guide on the fight and at least having your DL, but that's it. Nobody expects super smooth runs, heck most don't even expect to clear it, but they are there to learn. Most groups get T1 down and some even got T2 last week. Sure it might take a while, but learning how to do Coil is also part off the game, rather than trying to sneak into an experienced party and hoping for a carry.

I highly doubt these LS don't exist on other servers. So when people claim the only way to get into Coil is by lying about your experience I just call bull. Either you don't actually put any effort into a Coil party or you simply want to get carried by an experienced party.

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Originally Posted by Saziel

Some people have morals.

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How many of them have morals that doesn't only benefit them? this is the questions.

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Originally Posted by Freakiie

But wait! There's the catch! All these firsttimers don't actually want to go with firsttimers! Nope, they all think they deserve to get carried through by an experienced group! All those unexperienced people are way beneath their awesome level of skill! And voila, suddenly we have a problem how all those Coil groups are meanies that won't take them!

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lol I loved this post. But you are the type that points at the elephant in a room that people try to pretend isn't there, ain't you? But yah, can't get more direct than this. For all the talk about 'not fair you are inviting inexperienced' people, the inexperienced people dun even hook up with each other to do 'progression' to begin with.... plus a large portion of them are anti-social, who'd prefer to not be in a fc, or got trapped in a FC where they use it for simple talking (when they could of just used a LS for that.) instead of progression.

There are lots of newcomers going to Coil every day. They should take initiative and group up with other new people to learn the content. Make a linkshell with people you thought performed well. Rinse and repeat until you have about 10 people.

Wow, look at that - you just made a Coil semi-static and you aren't inexperienced anymore! So hard.

With some of the prevailing logic in this thread, none of us early Coil raiders should have cleared anything since we were all inexperienced. Boy, I wonder how we got "experienced".

Huh, guess that will be a puzzle for the historians to solve.