White Mage: You should DPS and here's why.

@Staris

Wrong, that's exactly what people are complaining about. Obviously if someone dies, people fill in for others, I never said anything otherwise. But people are not talking about that, they are talking about when parties are (more or less) fully healed and in control of the fight. So your post makes no sense as this discussion is about the complete opposite of what you seem to think it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Staris

So if a healer dies right before the end of a fight and im in summoner/black mage I shouldn't keep the tank up with physick? I should just refuse because I am dps?
And please remove mantra from your bar monks, that's a healers job to pay attention to healing!

---

Did you forget that the only reason most classes/jobs even have a skill that's out of their role is because this game is more solo, than grouping? (untill end game)
And take it from me, unless the enemy is sleepable, a BLM's healing make's little to no difference after lvl 40.

Also, if everyone but the tank is dead durring a boss fight, then either something went horriblely wrong, or the tank just sucks, and if the latter is the case continuing to attack most likely won't make a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

-text-

---

I also play whm and in WP SR I holy often as well, but I always make sure regen is on the tank. Many whm don't consider that the stunning part with Holy can save your tanks hp just as much as a cure. I have also done AK in cleric stance on a whm as well with a WAR tank. I may not recommend it to a party with lower level gear, but if your party has Darklight and relic the healer whatever it maybe should be able to DoT and switch cleric on and off. On the last boss in AK I grab the adds and burn them in cleric on my whm so does my other friend without any problems allowing our main DDs to max dd the boss to burn it even faster.
But yeah of course DDing as a SCH is overall less worry because of EOS/Selene. Then lustrate is just amazing. Also rumor has it if you pop a statues + pot and summon your pet even if the actual cool down of the pot disappears it will retain that extra stat increase. Anyone know if its 100% true or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

I also play whm and in WP SR I holy often as well, but I always make sure regen is on the tank. Many whm don't consider that the stunning part with Holy can save your tanks hp just as much as a cure. I have also done AK in cleric stance on a whm as well with a WAR tank. I may not recommend it to a party with lower level gear, but if your party has Darklight and relic the healer whatever it maybe should be able to DoT and switch cleric on and off. On the last boss in AK I grab the adds and burn them in cleric on my whm so does my other friend without any problems allowing our main DDs to max dd the boss to burn it even faster.

---

I have tried to get the DPS to ignore the adds before (because the last one or two basically don't matter) or just have one DPS deal with the add while the other stays on the boss, but my groups in AK tended to have 1 or more undergeared members, so it just wasn't an option. Also, orbs are hard. What are lasers and how do they work? >.< But yes, outside of trash packs (and the first boss if DPS is slow once the summoner goes down), you can be in cleric stance for most of it with a geared group. Undergeared is another story, and generally makes the entire dungeon rather taxing. I do find it helps to sleep the gargoyles and the Hound Lights, however, as they have a distressing habit of pulling off the tank and seem to do an inordinate amount of damage (for what they are) to the tanks.

Quote:

---

But yeah of course DDing as a SCH is overall less worry because of EOS/Selene. Then lustrate is just amazing. Also rumor has it if you pop a statues + pot and summon your pet even if the actual cool down of the pot disappears it will retain that extra stat increase. Anyone know if its 100% true or not?

---

I've never heard this, but I can ask a few mainspec Scholars I know to see what they say. I still can't get over how much easier it is to heal certain fights as SCH, tho. Lustrate is ridiculous, and so is being able to move and DPS freely on certain fights because the pet can cover most of the damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

z

---

Yeah sadly I mean switching to DD I would basically trust the healers experience. If they main a healing class (especially whm) they know what situations will kill the party and which wont. I always go to AK with a set group or at least a set Tank with allagan/af2 gear so it makes my life whether im feeling whm or sch that day so much easier. Although if the healer is just standing around for a good 1-2 minutes during a fight its like throw Aero! But healing is always the first priority in any situation.
Yeah about the pot thing I have tried it (smn/sch), but I feel like it didn't do anything? I don't have a lot of SCH main healing end game friends to even ask. I don't really trust my judgment on these types of mechanics whether it works or not I leave it to the pros.So, its pretty confusing. I'd really appreciate it if you could ask. I switched to SCH main for that reason controlling enmity and powerful barriers/lustrate makes life great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

Yeah sadly I mean switching to DD I would basically trust the healers experience. If they main a healing class (especially whm) they know what situations will kill the party and which wont. I always go to AK with a set group or at least a set Tank with allagan/af2 gear so it makes my life whether im feeling whm or sch that day so much easier. Although if the healer is just standing around for a good 1-2 minutes during a fight its like throw Aero! But healing is always the first priority in any situation.
Yeah about the pot thing I have tried it (smn/sch), but I feel like it didn't do anything? I don't have a lot of SCH main healing end game friends to even ask. I don't really trust my judgment on these types of mechanics whether it works or not I leave it to the pros.So, its pretty confusing. I'd really appreciate it if you could ask. I switched to SCH main for that reason controlling enmity and powerful barriers/lustrate makes life great.

---

Yes yes yes yes yes... One of the tanks I run with has his relic +1 and some Allagan gear and it's like, he takes noooo damage, so when I run with him I actually prefer to be SCH because I feel far more comfortable DPSing as SCH (0 mana issues + fairy + Lustrate). Just let the fairy heal him the entire time, not like he needs me at all! When I'm in the mood to DPS, I'm usually SCH, and when I just want to heal and relax, I'm WHM.

I actually prefer WHM over SCH because SCH has it so easy thanks to the fairies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

If you're so determined to stay active in dull moments, then how about renewing Stoneskin on everyone who's been hit?

---

I can't believe I'm seeing this suggestion from someone who cited MP concerns two sentences before. Combat-casting Stoneskin is probably the dumbest, least efficient thing a WHM can do, ever, unless you're timing it to land after the last hit before a mob dies (which is actually the best way to use it). Or self-casting during an intense fight where you might eat a massive AOE later. (e.g. Hard Mode Primals)

I somewhat agree with you though - if you're not confident about your MP management in a given fight, by all means don't blow it on Stone II. But a decent WHM isn't going to have this problem on most fights unless the tank sucks with a capital SUCKS. For me, the first two or three fights are my "test" for my tank. I give them Stoneskin and Regen, then act like a DD. I watch how their health falls and if they can hold hate from me. If they pass both tests then congratulations, we're going to be out of here a lot faster.

To be fair to everyone though, when I talk about what -I- do, I'm talking about running WP/AK in full darklight with Relic body/head. Your mileage will obviously vary on your first few runs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melithea

I can't believe I'm seeing this suggestion from someone who cited MP concerns two sentences before. Combat-casting Stoneskin is probably the dumbest, least efficient thing a WHM can do, ever, unless you're timing it to land after the last hit before a mob dies (which is actually the best way to use it). Or self-casting during an intense fight where you might eat a massive AOE later. (e.g. Hard Mode Primals)

---

My opinion about Stoneskin is valid. It cost just as much as Cure II, which makes it somewhat easy to recover from, and because most people don't lose 18% of their health in one hit, I don't have to spam it (like I mentioned before) as I would with Stone II (which ultimately costs more MP). It's a safer but just as effective alternative to adding DPS in a fight. I swear, so many people underestimate the value Stoneskin now..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

I swear, so many people underestimate the value Stoneskin now..

---

I know exactly the value of Stoneskin and it's a crappy Cure II. Cure II is much better unless I'm casting on someone with 7200+ HP, and that number would be a lot higher if my weapon didn't suck. Now, I like to keep Stoneskin up on my entire party, but you can't possibly tell me that this is keeping you busy, other than the fact that Stoneskin takes forever to cast. You certainly don't need to be casting it mid-battle except in special circumstances. Spamming Stoneskin in a fight is about on par with spamming Medica.

Healers are made for healing. They don't have to dps at all if they don't want to. But what separates a mediocre healer to a kick ass healer is assisting knowing when and what u need to do to help out the group. In early dungeons knowing how to use repose is the difference between an easy run or a run where ur always oom. At later levels helping dps could mean dealing with the bees in ak or just knocking out the wall fast enough to where the bees don't show up .
Stance dance isn't a skill a lot of healers aren't good it. It takes some practice and knowing when to do it or setting up for it is the key. My stance dance normally goes stoneskin/regen/cleric stance then pewpewpew then switch stance just in time to save the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melithea

I know exactly the value of Stoneskin and it's a crappy Cure II. Cure II is much better unless I'm casting on someone with 7200+ HP, and that number would be a lot higher if my weapon didn't suck.

---

IF that were true, you would know that Stoneskin and Cure have different functions and can't be compaired. Stoneskin is a barrier that's based on the targets max HP. It has the same cast/recast time as cure I & II, and your last sentence suggests you missed this part of my last post..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

It cost just as much as Cure II, which makes it somewhat easy to recover from, and because most people don't lose 18% of their health in one hit, I don't have to spam it as I would with Stone II.

---

Got something else, or are we done here?

I agree with OP.

The whole DPSing as a White Mage was something that I slowly picked up through experience. While it might seem trivial to me now, Cleric Stance was quite difficult to wrap my head around.

Some tips for new WHMs.

Practice Cleric Stance first. The cooldown upon turning it on is going to throw you off if you don't know what you're doing, and sometimes turning it off will fail if you do it too early. If you're inexperienced, it's probably ideal to go back to healing once the tank's HP approaches half health.

Also, you should only start DPSing once you fully understand the dungeon/enemies (by going through them, not through a guide). While DPS is a good thing to have to finishing dungeons faster, it sucks really bad if; 1. You grab too much aggro from spamming Holy, 2. You run out of mana DPSing/or again, spamming Holy, or 3. The enemy did massive damage because you weren't expecting it. When starting mob fights, pop Divine Seal and Regen on the tank, then CC (Repose/Fluid Aura) appropriately so you have more time to DPS.

A healer's DPS helps when it comes to those situational moments like Titan's Heart/Gaol. Once you're familiar with DPSing, you should be able to decide for yourself when to stop and whether to just land your DoTs before going back to healing.

Lastly, remember that for most boss battles or difficult mobs, it is perfectly fine to go into full-healing mode. Nobody's going to bash you for it unless they're assholes. At the end of the day, you signed up for your party as a healer. DPSing may have many benefits, but if you think you're not ready for it, then just stick to healing and let the others do the rest.

I don't think anyone on the healer's side here is debating that we can and will help out with DPS when possible. What people are objecting to is this view that we are expected to be switching back and forth throughout cleric all instance long. As I and others have said, we will DPS when their is a safe opportunity or for exceptional circumstances (i.e. full DPS on Demon Wall.) But if you really need your healer dishing out DPS all dungeon long, then it isn't the healer who is doing their job wrong.

IF you know the fight AND you can heal all or the vast majority of incoming damage through HoTs AND mana is not going to be an issue now or at any time in the fight THEN you should be in cleric stance. No question about it. If you have a bard, this is almost every fight.... Turn1 and Turn2 aren't optimal for it, but all of the HM primals, and even Turn 4 has HUGE windows for you to be in cleric stance. The only limiting factors are your gear, your skill, and if you have a bard or not... and if you don't have the mana to pull it off, at very least you should be dropping a fluid aura while in cleric stance the gaol after heart in Titan HM. It costs you no mana, and there is plenty of time to switch back out of Cleric stance before he MB/Tulmets. Make sure your tank has a renew on him and be ready to switch back to him quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

It has the same cast/recast time as cure I & II

---

Cures are 2s.
Stoneskin is 3s.

Taking a typical Amdapor Keep or Wanderer's Palace where you fight 1 pull at a time, Scholar can more or less keep Cleric up full time. And I should damn well hope it makes a difference in kill speed; 75%+ of tanks fail to maintain hate when I go full AoE DoT crazy (Relic+1 ~400+ MND, varies due to spiritbinding accessories). WHM is not that different, and I agree with Tanaya 101%.

If you don't stance dance DPS (out of spite/indifference, not out of fear), you're purposefully limiting yourself. There are lulls in almost every boss fight (or in some cases, the lulls are just dodging AoE on non-tanks so whether or not it's a free pass depends on if your DPS are awake and dodging). If you're new, just ease into it as others have said. Try to youtube a healer PoV run of (non-speedrun) AK or WP just to get an idea of when/what they do in those "lulls". That's how I changed from a robot healer to what I am now.

I think the main thing when DPSing as a healer comes down to experience. It isn't just knowing your class and the dungeon. It's having enough experience with that and with understanding tank's durability and aggro capabilities to know when its safe to contribute to dealing damage without pulling threat (or letting him get murderstabbed). A WHM or SCH dealing damage while healing can very easily out-threat any mediocre tank. As someone said before, I wouldn't recommend it for people just starting with the role. No tank wants to contend with trying to out-threat a WHM who has an over-fondness for Cure 2 and Holy Spamming. At the same time, you can definitely speed runs up by swapping to Clerics between any critical healing moments and teaching your DPS players how it's done.

I will say that with its pitifully small number of ranged damage abilities (and the stupidly short duration of Aero II) , DPSing as a WHM is a bigger pain during boss fights than it is for SCH. But even for those uncomfortable with dealing damage during bosses, I would recommend practicing the Clerics Stance Dance during trash. If nothing else, it's much more fun to heal while killing things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanaya

Cures are 2s.
Stoneskin is 3s.

---

One second more shouldn't make that big a difference. And if it does, then perhaps Stance danceing isn't the answer.

I only DPS when I know I can spare the time and that everyone is at an acceptable HP level.

Otherwise, it's a waste of time for so little damage. With global cool downs + the time it takes to casts spells it is not worth sometimes to do a cleric stance dance and risk having somebody die

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Taking a typical Amdapor Keep or Wanderer's Palace where you fight 1 pull at a time, Scholar can more or less keep Cleric up full time.

---

I should think so, since, by then, they have a summon that can pick up the slack. A SCH has a much larger dps window than a WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

One second more shouldn't make that big a difference. And if it does, then perhaps Stance danceing isn't the answer.

---

This is cute.

I won't knock on your playstyle, even if I don't agree with it. But trying to correlate Stoneskin's efficiency with Cleric's Stance is pretty silly.

Nooooo Tanaya don't do iiiiiiitttttt!!!!
Ah, you did it... Now every single CNJ/WHM/SCH will think they can DPS all they want when they want...
What you say is completely right, it makes sense, but remember that there are people doing heal jobs after dps jobs!
Today I was in Haukke as THM, with a CNJ that was dpsing everything he saw, because he was a lv50 BLM and didn't accept the change I guess...
We died twice per fight, every trash mobs killed us more than once, and as I, lv50 WHM, tried to give him advice, he started insulting and saying "let me do my job"...
I know you are telling us your opinion, but you risk to ruin the game like this TT___TT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanDere

I know you are telling us your opinion, but you risk to ruin the game like this TT___TT

---

That's the fault of people who can't read, adapt, or think. Not Tanaya.

I agree that not every whm or sch can dps

But if I see a sch or a whm standing around doing nothing in example ak when tank is full, I get pissed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whippet

I agree that not every whm or sch can dps

But if I see a sch or a whm standing around doing nothing in example ak when tank is full, I get pissed

---

They r controlling the pet...u just dont know it~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krisstina

They r controlling the pet...u just dont know it~

---

Assuming you're serious, you can (and should) control pet while casting so there's no reason to have to do one or the other. You do both.

It's gotten to the point where I make my fairy dodge with me on Demon Wall with Place. Just because.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanaya

I won't knock on your playstyle, even if I don't agree with it. But trying to correlate Stoneskin's efficiency with Cleric's Stance is pretty silly.

---

I wasn't thinking about efficiency when I said that. I'm talking about timers. There's no way you can tell me toggleing Cleric Stance, before casting a spell, is faster than casting Stoneskin (not after saying there's a hidden timer). That's all I saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

That's the fault of people who can't read, adapt, or think. Not Tanaya.

---

And the people who apparently can read, adapt, and think, are now 11 pages deep in this standstill thread. Let's face it, we're getting nowhere with this.

People who are ready to step up their game will take this advice under advisement or are already doing it. People who are not ready should know they are not ready, due to lack of experience or actual results causing performance issues. Acting like the issue has to come to a consensus when it is in fact just a "are you ready for this or not" check is pretty silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

One second more shouldn't make that big a difference. And if it does, then perhaps Stance danceing isn't the answer.

---

Right.. only a 1 second difference per cast, not big at all...

Stoneskin is very inefficient to use mid fight unless youre healing a warrior with a lot of HP and even then there is better ways to do it. At my gear level a stoneskin is about as effective as a Cure 1 on any tank with around 5300 hp(less than that Cure 1 is better) and that costs half the mp and is a second quicker to cast. Of course there are some moments where a stoneskin mid fight can be very helpful, like mountain buster, but for a dungeon trash pull? No..

You're better off just casting a Regen, if your tank has some gear this can be enough to keep him alive on 1-2 mob pulls which gives you a lot of time to help dps. If I'm playing with a geared tank that knows what he's doing ill just throw on a Divine Seal + regen combo after hes got aggro and I can dps for the whole trash pull, every pull... Its just so much more effective than stoneskin..

Seriously more WHM need to use Divine seal like.. all the time. Its got a huge uptime with such a low cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

I wasn't thinking about efficiency when I said that. I'm talking about timers. There's no way you can tell me toggleing Cleric Stance, before casting a spell, is faster than casting Stoneskin (not after saying there's a hidden timer). That's all I saying.

---

So you've made a completely pointless rebuttal.

Is this going anywhere?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanika

Let's face it, we're getting nowhere with this.

---

Apparently not.

I'll make it short, in stuff like AK the WHMs job is to create himself time to DPS by using divine sealed regen.

If you don't do this you are a bad WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Merlee

I'll make it short, in stuff like AK the WHMs job is to create himself time to DPS by using divine sealed regen.

If you don't do this you are a bad WHM.

---

Except for when you have a tank who isn't geared enough to make that doable.

Or DPS who pull extra mobs (though, yes, 'how" would be the question, yet I've had groups get the Dullahan, a Succ, and a pack of the eyeball + that gargoyle guy - unintentionally).

Or groups for whom "hey, move out of the red circle" is a real difficulty.

Groups who ignore the stone dude as it's beating on my face, and don't stun/interrupt the guy before he does his AoE (and stone guy does an AoE if you leave him up too long).

Groups for whom "what is stun, and how does it work?" seems to be a legitimate question, and don't ask them to get out of the lines of shadow poop, because omg, impossibru! Also: Let's all stand together in a pile and take all of the Murder Hole damage. :D

What do you MEAN I shouldn't run behind the boss's tail with the orb? Also, I have this laser thing attached to me, HOW DOES IT WORK?

"Sorry, bro, I was lagging." (This is Post-Bad Decision Lag, btw. It's a real epidemic in this game.)

You figure me a way to create myself time to DPS with derps like that, and I'll accept your words. Otherwise, you really need to qualify those words with, "in a static group where the WHM knows the tank and/or DPS" if you want me to take you seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Varok899

Stoneskin is very inefficient to use mid fight unless youre healing a warrior with a lot of HP and even then there is better ways to do it. At my gear level a stoneskin is about as effective as a Cure 1 on any tank with around 5300 hp(less than that Cure 1 is better) and that costs half the mp and is a second quicker to cast.

---

Not just another pretty face..

If you can't compaire Stoneskin's function with Cure, why would Regen be any different?

I see Divine Seal as a comeback spell (as in after Garuda takes half of everyones health in 1 hit), and I sure I'm not the only one. Besides, if I saw a WHM pop Divine Seal every chance they had, I'd wonder if they could heal effectively without it. That's exactly what it would imply.
Spamming it also lowers the chances of haveing it available when you actually need it. I shouldn't even have to say that, but I know I'd be forced to later if I don't.

I'll also take this moment to note an observation. Almost everyone here is focusing purely on lvl 50 players with a glvl of 60+, when the thread affects everyone over lvl 30.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanaya

So you've made a completely pointless rebuttal.

---

No different than your last post.

This thread is a joke. Of course you can stance dance when you are brute forcing content that is 20+ item levels beneath you. All for welfare gear that outclasses anything you can get by actually challenging yourself. Don't be too proud of yourselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ProvidenceBreaker

This thread is a joke. Of course you can stance dance when you are brute forcing content that is 20+ item levels beneath you. All for welfare gear that outclasses anything you can get by actually challenging yourself. Don't be too proud of yourselves.

---

I've been stance dancing while leveling, it's incredibly boring to play a CNJ without it. It's a matter of sizing up the tank quickly and getting a feel for which trash packs/bosses hit light and which hit hard, which I already knew most from doing the same thing while tanking. I've done it with tanks in full HQ and tanks with less HP than the dragoon, though obviously it's easier with the geared tank.

I haven't hit Brayflox yet though, I'll see how much stance dancing I'll be doing in there and SV. I could easily see doing this in WP/AK though.

Also you sound like you need a hug. Should probably see someone about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ProvidenceBreaker

This thread is a joke. Of course you can stance dance when you are brute forcing content that is 20+ item levels beneath you. All for welfare gear that outclasses anything you can get by actually challenging yourself. Don't be too proud of yourselves.

---

Lol? you seem to lack Reading comprehension

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

I've been stance dancing while leveling, it's incredibly boring to play a CNJ without it. It's a matter of sizing up the tank quickly and getting a feel for which trash packs/bosses hit light and which hit hard, which I already knew most from doing the same thing while tanking. I've done it with tanks in full HQ and tanks with less HP than the dragoon, though obviously it's easier with the geared tank.

I haven't hit Brayflox yet though, I'll see how much stance dancing I'll be doing in there and SV. I could easily see doing this in WP/AK though.

Also you sound like you need a hug. Should probably see someone about that.

---

You can probably get away with stance dancing in Brayflox. Those fights tend to either be really, really easy, or just...horrible (which is directly related to the skill of your tanks and DPS, not actually to anything YOU do). I don't recommend stance dancing on the last boss, however. You'll need every point of your mana if your tank is unable to dodge breath. >.< (Also: Esuna. Love it!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

That's the fault of people who can't read, adapt, or think. Not Tanaya.

---

Yes, but if you risk that someone misunderstands it, then it's better not to run the risk...
I hope no assholes will read this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanDere

Yes, but if you risk that someone misunderstands it, then it's better not to run the risk...
I hope no assholes will read this.

---

Noted so girls arn't allowed to wear a skirt, it's too risky since it's easier for them to get abused

Noted