Please nerf Holy.

QQ is so cute sometimes...
It is like complaining that BLM have big nukes, me smnno nukes... neeerf!

just lol

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Originally Posted by Jarlax

Some people make the stun sound OP, but you have to remember there are diminishing returns so after holy 3 mobs are immune to the stun.

Each Job has specific strengths and weaknesses

scholars get a couple fairies and a lot more utility but lack AoE potentional, but still has some AoE.

white mages have superior AoE potentional at the cost of large chunks of MP that is hard to recover but weaker single target, Aero, Aero II, lightning, and stone II vrs what you have.

while a scholar dpses their fairy can heal the party

while a white mage dpses no one actively heals the party.

........seems balanced

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This^

I can relax so much on my SCH in AK and WP since the fairy gives me so much breathing room ontop of infinite mana... but that holy spam on WHM.....

You would really nerf an ability because it's better than another classes ability for farming? Sounds pretty silly to me. Holy is great it's about the only good thing going for WHM's DPS wise.

How about this, you can nerf Holy but, we should get buffs to stone II and stone I. :D

The fact that anyone would ask for nerfs or buffs regarding farming content is beyond me. If this isn't a troll thread i just give up.

I am so freaking tired of hearing nerf Holy. White mage gets ONE decent DPS spell at level FORTY-FIVE. You want to nerf it because of ONE dungeon. Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Shiji

How about this, you can nerf Holy but, we should get buffs to stone II and stone I. :D

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Stone II hits like a truck.

Anyone else think the OP is a jerk?

What is the real problem here?

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Originally Posted by ReviiLagoon

I'm supposed to heal as a SCH? Normally I just let my pet do all that while I sit in cleric stance and DPS everything, this goes on for everything, not just trash mobs, even bosses it's like this....

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There are only a few things in endgame that require a SCH to actually heal. That's WP speedruns for the big packs, Caduceus post-split, ADS II (but not the 3 mini-bosses, the Fairy/Whm can handle them) and certain sections of T4, especially the AOE spam at the end. For everything else, Cleric Stance + the occasional Lustrate will get the job done.

Why is it always Nerf Whtmges instead of BUFF sch. FFS people stop trying to get ppl nerfed for no reason other then "Im not as cool as XYX! Please nerf"

*Head desk*

I'll happily give Scholars comparable AoE DPS to White Mages.

Assuming they quintuple the cost of their AoE and DoTs first. :p

I can't help, but think because whm have a skill you consider better, that it should be taken away. in fact lets take away everything from whm that makes them good just so you can feel like your class is best. Lets get rid of Repose. Scholars can't sleep therefor OP. Lets get rid of regen and medica 2. Scholars can't do it. Therefor, you guessed it. OP. Lets nerf medica cause it heals more than succor. OP. Nerf shroud. Aetherflow doesn't take away enmity. OP.

You are just being silly. Let classes have differences please. Instead of asking for a nerf, how about something else? Why not "Give us the ability to summon carbuncle." I would never try to take from you just to make me better.

Shadow flare is a defensive cd of sorts it puts a 20% slow on mobs so they hit a bit slower while damaging them

Holy is pretty much a Black Mage Flare that is spammable on Cleric Stance. Its damage is absolutely absurd. A Holy spamming WHM is the highest AoE burst damage in the game.

No WP speed run will use a Scholar. Ever.

To say that your tank can survive without healing for the 7.5 seconds of DoT setup and Bane, which has a target cap, is just laughable.

If Scholar DPS is so good as WHM claim, I'll dare you to grind with a SCH for a week and record it. Not only do you kill much slower than a WHM, but your DPS has serious ramp up.

And put that pipe down or whatever you're smoking if you think a fairy can soloheal a tank. That fairy at best hits Embrace for 600. It ain't keeping anybody up.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Holy is pretty much a Black Mage Flare that is spammable on Cleric Stance. Its damage is absolutely absurd. A Holy spamming WHM is the highest AoE burst damage in the game.

No WP speed run will use a Scholar. Ever.

To say that your tank can survive without healing for the 7.5 seconds of DoT setup and Bane, which has a target cap, is just laughable.

If Scholar DPS is so good as WHM claim, I'll dare you to grind with a SCH for a week and record it. Not only do you kill much slower than a WHM, but your DPS has serious ramp up.

And put that pipe down or whatever you're smoking if you think a fairy can soloheal a tank. That fairy at best hits Embrace for 600. It ain't keeping anybody up.

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Sorry to disappoint you but in the realm of AK and Palace farming runs I don't even leave Cleric Stance as a SCH because my faerie can indeed solo cure the tank. (The exception of when doing palace runs and doing it AoE spam style which is seriously not all that much faster and substantially more dangerous.) If you are talking about Primals and Coil(have not done coil yet) Then you are probably correct even though I do have plenty of time to Cleric Stance and DoT up Titan's Heart but obviously that is with another healer as well.

For trash mob fights yes I will give you that WHM Holy is probably better than a SCH but on boss fights where my faerie can more than easily solo heal for the time it takes me to get my DoTs up I am going to bank on SCH being able to do more DPS. (And this is a lot of boss fights).

I have also done WP speed runs on SCH and been just fine and fast and all that good stuff. So again I am not sure where you are getting such a DEFINITE "AH HELLZ NO SCH" on that one.

If they aren't taking you as SCH, it's because they aren't taking YOU.

Holy is fine stop crying over it

WP best format i've seen was a SCH, WHM, BRD, PLD

l2p

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Originally Posted by Maku

Sorry to disappoint you but in the realm of AK and Palace farming runs I don't even leave Cleric Stance as a SCH because my faerie can indeed solo cure the tank. (The exception of when doing palace runs and doing it AoE spam style which is seriously not all that much faster and substantially more dangerous.) If you are talking about Primals and Coil(have not done coil yet) Then you are probably correct even though I do have plenty of time to Cleric Stance and DoT up Titan's Heart but obviously that is with another healer as well.

For trash mob fights yes I will give you that WHM Holy is probably better than a SCH but on boss fights where my faerie can more than easily solo heal for the time it takes me to get my DoTs up I am going to bank on SCH being able to do more DPS. (And this is a lot of boss fights).

I have also done WP speed runs on SCH and been just fine and fast and all that good stuff. So again I am not sure where you are getting such a DEFINITE "AH HELLZ NO SCH" on that one.

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AoE speed runs are much faster. It's not dangerous at all if you have the AoE for it. Which Holy does. You only need like 2 Holy's for each big pull and alongside the BLM popping his AoE and a summoner Contagion Bane, the group of mobs is wiped out quickly.

WHM holy is currently OP, I say this as a level 50 WHM. Try running 3 WHMs + 1 Tank in WP... Depending on your gear you can get down to 12-15min runs. Running 3 WHMs may seem absurd, but it is just as viable if not more so than 1 WHM and 2 aoe dpsers.

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Originally Posted by Nourah

WHM holy is currently OP, I say this as a level 50 WHM. Try running 3 WHMs + 1 Tank in WP... Depending on your gear you can get down to 12-15min runs. Running 3 WHMs may seem absurd, but it is just as viable if not more so than 1 WHM and 2 aoe dpsers.

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No, it isn't. You know what makes it powerful? Cleric Stance. Do you know why it does? Because it swaps Mind for Int. I don't need to tell you that. Know why we have such high mind? Because of all this ilvl 70/90 gear. Have you ever tried to see how much Holy does without Cleric Stance on? What happens to white mages during cleric stance? We take a knock for healing potency. A good sacrifice don't ya think? We get Holy at level 45. Our first and --> only <--- aoe. Only have the option to use it from those levels+ which is 5 more to cap. The whole time we are forced to throw stones, blow winds and shoot a water gun at the enemy. Whm finally get something that is good and people have a problem with it cause it is something their choice class doesn't have. Never mind the fact that while fairys heal, they have the option to nuke better because there is something always able to heal. May be dumb as a rock, but it is still better than no healing at all. It isn't used that often during bosses because healers are busy healing and not nuking and people are complaining about trash mobs?

So if Holy is "nerfed" what happens to its base damage? Just how much should it be reduced to without making it only castable in cleric stance? Even if they substitute or take away the stun, it will still be powerful. Holy has always been a powerful spell in the final fantasy universe and one of my favorites next to Ultima. Why make it into something pathetic?

Holy is great in TWP, AK, and a few similar instances that are the absolute fringe of endgame (that is actually being polite, probably) and it is pretty much only great when your group out-gears the instance by a large margin.

It also has some niche application during Turn 4, but that doesn't keep scholars from getting invited to that. Somehow I suspect that this fact wasn't a consideration when this thread was made, anyway.

If changing Holy makes people happy then that won't make doing my job any harder so, by all means, go for it. I'm just a bit puzzled as to why we have a ten page thread about this of all things rather than addressing the inability to stack adloquium, or the relative power of stacked regen effects, etc. I actually thought this thread was an elaborate ruse initially. Was I wrong?

wow.. just wow .. i have both whm and sch on 50 running WP , and so what WHM runs faster on WP ? sch runs faster on AK. it is just this one instance, and you have to have overgear to do those speedrun.

try that with a AF group and let me know the result.

oh, WAR can spam overpower & instant TP 300 recover, plus, they can getting buffed on 2.1 !? WHAT?

but why would i ask to nerf my party members , seriously.
if you see a light party of full WHM could speedrun all dungeons, then raise a thread for it.

healers are doing fine .....

This thread.. this thread is a joke. Right..?

SCH dps is comparable to WHM on 3-4 mobs. Complaining that WHM have higher dps on 5+ mobs is kind of petty, I guess you just want WHM to not do dps at all in AoE situations?

Never seen so much complaint over an ability to used to farm, that is also useless on most progression fights due to mana constraints.

Phoenix must be a pretty bad World, because I'm not seeing any of these WP Relic groups going "LF White Mage for AoE DPS!" or "Tank LF 3 WHMs to speedrun WP". :(

Not that I've played my White Mage in a fairly long amount of time. 21 runs and counting for the Darklight Kite Shield. -_-

Clerics Stance.
Shadow Flare.
Dots on Tonberry. Bane. (Needs to be fixed to apply dots to ALL targets in range)
Miasma II.
Tab Aero.

Is it harder? Yes. Scholar is a harder class than WHM. If you don't like it, finish leveling your Conjurer.

Dont forget.... Scholar can and *should* use SELENE on a Speedrun. (When we talk speedrun we talk experienced players who know the dungeon) Half the time 30% Spellspeed-Increase for the party, the other half 30% Skillspeed-Increase for the party. Plus Shadow Flare.
That does increase DPS a lot - and that doesnt even include the Scholars own skills to DPS.

Its not holy or anything else that needs to be nerfed over a speed run in content you outgear.

If SE suddenly decided they didn't want people to abuse mechanics for speed runs it would be a simple matter of putting ilvl caps in dungeons just like lvl syncs in low lvl instances.

Holy certainly isn't overpowered at all in wp if you wearing gear that is actually ilvl 55 like the gear that drops. (Or even ilvl 60 ak gear.) But when you are reaching ilvl 70-90.. sure. The raw potency of the attacks and the giant mana pool enable the spell...but there is no reason to adjust the spells themselves. None.

Wow, leave holy alone, if you nerf holy anymore than it is I think I'll never even go into cleric stance. SCH needs like an AOE DOT or something but thats it.

Who liked the OP's post? come on fess up.

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Originally Posted by Vyserion

Scholar is a harder class than WHM.

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Sure is hard watching the Fairy heal for you. :)

It should not be powerful without Cleric Stance. No other healer spell is.

Getting a OP spell is not how you justify being special.

A healer should NEVER be doing an AoE spell that rivals or outperforms the AoE of a DPS class.

It should not be powerful without Cleric Stance. No other healer spell is.

Getting a OP spell is not how you justify being special.

A healer should NEVER be doing an AoE spell that rivals or outperforms the AoE of a DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Bridgeburner

Sure is hard watching the Fairy heal for you. :)

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Raid heal without Medica II (which is what scholars do), and it's not like you can't slap regen on someone while you're healing somebody else.

Then you can get back to me about WHM being hard.

im a whm and do 15-18min speed runs of WP with my FC.
we do pld, brd, blm, whm combination. we are all quite geared with many ilv90 pieces.

brd mana songs while we aoe, so tank can spam flash.
We take 2-4 packs of enemies at a time and aoe them.

i would love to see a whm dance in and out of cleric stance while healing that, even with the tank using their normal cds. once the cds wear off, i have to SPAM cure 2 to keep him alive. if i had to take the extra 3-5 secs to turn on/off cleric stance (yes its a VERY long time to turn it off, since its affected by gcd, and even after gcd is off cd, for some reason it still does like to go off, then u hit it twice and turn it back on some times and -.-)

also its not that easy to weave a 3 sec cast into healing rotations. like try spamming shadow flare during a fight without your fairy healing XD

i usually only am able to cleric stance 1 holy, or maybe 2 if i do them back to back, otherwise tank will die.
sch in general do more damage then whm do in fight lol. and they are able to easier weave attacks into their rotations.
(i have a geared relic sch btw)


if u try to say "well if u only did 1-2 groups at a time whm is more op because they can spam holy more.".
Then my reply is what u keep saying "have you ever done speed runs"? :/

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Raid heal without Medica II (which is what scholars do), and it's not like you can't slap regen on someone while you're healing somebody else.

Then you can get back to me about WHM being hard.

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i rarely use medicaII on anything. its not that good of a skill. it uses too much mp, too long cast time, and generates WAY too much aggro.
Usually only baddy whm use medica II alot.

the only fights i used medicaII on is turn2 coil for the regen from wind ticks. Its not necessary, but it keeps me and sch on tanks longer. I mean the sch could keep everyone alive from that easily using succor. But i can cast 1 spell which lasts longer then 1 succor does, so its more effective.

titan doesnt need medica 2, i could just use 2 medicas instead (which heals for the almost same as 1 succor if u include NONcrit shield it gives, if u crit the shield succor is alot better).
But i usually throw on a medica II for stomps so i can throw dots on titan so it dies faster.

the only other time i use medica II is whem im TRYING to get aggro.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

It should not be powerful without Cleric Stance. No other healer spell is.

Getting a OP spell is not how you justify being special.

A healer should NEVER be doing an AoE spell that rivals or outperforms the AoE of a DPS class.

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Its not powerful at all without cleric stance.

Its not an op spell. Its a 3 second cast with a 1 sec delay for over 500 mana and diminishing returns on stun.

It doesn't outperform actual aoe dps classes. Blm's get modifiers healers don't and can use dps buffs. I have seen blm aoe crit for double my highest crit.

Why shouldn't a healer be able to solo or farm if they sacrifice their healing? Cleric stance means you can't heal effectively at all. The idea that a healer is only ever a healer and never does anything except heal is outdated and silly.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

I just checked, you are correct.

However my main issue is that, while casting Bio/BioII/Miasma/Shadow Flare + Bane takes 10s ~ a WHM can weave in and out and cast Holy when needed and it even acts as a defensive CD with the stun.

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so one job has something better then the other?
Why does everyone want too homogenize everything?

wht mage has holy but has trouble keeping mana in long fights without help,so maybe we should give aetherflow too wht mages in the form of a elemental "Draw" to recover mana.
smn don't have great burst outside of fester maybe we should give them flare in the form of a "decay" spell.
warriors have high hp but cant block,give them a new axe that has a shield on the front of it.
all good ideas yes?

please nerf yourself..

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Raid heal without Medica II (which is what scholars do), and it's not like you can't slap regen on someone while you're healing somebody else.

Then you can get back to me about WHM being hard.

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SCH and WHM are about the same in difficulty unless you find micromanaging a few more abilities that are independent of your own GCD "difficult". On another note, SCH will never have threat issues because your healing is always going to be split between you and your faerie. A WHM, on the other hand, always has to gauge how much threat his spells will generate. This is extremely noticeable in encounters where healing threat is potentially a raid wiping issue (e.g. Turn 4).

Honestly, you're trying to compare a WHM's strength (aoe raid healing) to a SCH's weak point (shield based AoE heal to compliment WHM). That would be like a WHM complaining about how good SCHs are at single target healing (faerie manual Embrace casting + Physick + Lustrates). The only thing I would change for SCH healing is make pet abilities macroable (so that you can create a mouseover for Embrace), further improve pet AI (Selene/Eos still does w/e they want with their abilities once you start manual casting Embrace...), and SCH shields stack if cast by different SCHs. I play both jobs on a frequent basis and I honestly believe that SE did a good job on balancing the healer roles in this game outside of a few fringe elements such as WP speed runs.

Replacing a WHM with a SCH for WP speed runs makes it slightly longer (no more than 3 minutes), but that's mostly because our Bane currently doesn't spread to more than 3 targets which really limits our mass AoE capabilities down to just Miasma 2 and Shadowflare. I'm still not sure if Bane is just flat out bugged or the tooltip is wrong (it states "all targets").

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Originally Posted by Filenotfound

im a whm and do 15-18min speed runs of WP with my FC.
we do pld, brd, blm, whm combination. we are all quite geared with many ilv90 pieces.

brd mana songs while we aoe, so tank can spam flash.
We take 2-4 packs of enemies at a time and aoe them.

i would love to see a whm dance in and out of cleric stance while healing that, even with the tank using their normal cds. once the cds wear off, i have to SPAM cure 2 to keep him alive. if i had to take the extra 3-5 secs to turn on/off cleric stance (yes its a VERY long time to turn it off, since its affected by gcd, and even after gcd is off cd, for some reason it still does like to go off, then u hit it twice and turn it back on some times and -.-)

also its not that easy to weave a 3 sec cast into healing rotations. like try spamming shadow flare during a fight without your fairy healing XD

i usually only am able to cleric stance 1 holy, or maybe 2 if i do them back to back, otherwise tank will die.
sch in general do more damage then whm do in fight lol. and they are able to easier weave attacks into their rotations.

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Try having your BRD mana song for you while your group is on the move and Foe Requiem instead during AoE. I can usually Divine Seal Regen -> Cure 2 to top tank then Cleric Stance Holy until the pack is dead because of the dmg increase the BLM and I get from Foe Req.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

A healer should NEVER be doing an AoE spell that rivals or outperforms the AoE of a DPS class.

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Why? Because you said so?

The other day I decided to join a random castrum in duty. Didn't feel like searching for a group or speed running. Just felt like playing. End up getting paired with another white mage. Half the people was their first time including the white mage. So the tank is decked in all darklight and relic +1 goes to tanking. Gathers up all the mobs. I switch to cleric and start my holy. The tank of course isn't taking hardly any damage thanks to his defense and regen. The other white mage notices and tries to mimic what I am doing as he was just standing there. He only had af armor on and a white level 50ish weapon.

Let me tell you even with his cleric stance on I don't think he would have done much more damage than with it off. I had almost 4k hp while he had around 2.7k hp. My cure 1 were shy of about 100-200 points of healing than his cure 2. The amount of damage he was hitting for his holy was what I would have been doing with my cleric stance off. If it was nerfed just how much more weaker could that spell get for him?

Before all this ivl70/90 gear was common in players people managed to beat wanderer's palace with just regular gear and regular weapons. Who would have thought it was possible? And still to this day it is. Now try playing Coil with those armor and weapons. You can't do it. I don't think your party could survive the golem stomp to make it to the first boss in turn 1. But now we have equipment that lets us complete this content pretty easy. Now take those players and gear we have and then take it to that back to a dungeon that can be completed with regular artifact armor easy enough. Yeah. Everyone there is OP. EVERYONE. Doesn't matter how you spin it. The enemies aren't leveling up. They aren't getting better armor. They aren't getting better weapons. Their skills aren't doing anymore damage.

We are way past what was normal at one point in this game. By nerfing holy, you only will hurt those players who are new to the game. It isn't our fault we were given this gear with tons of mind on it to use at level 50. If people honestly want a nerf, then it needs to be to equipment, but I don't agree with that and probably neither will you or most everyone here.

Came here expecting some decent thought input into something that maybe meaningful. Instead it's either a troll thread or incredibly misguided conceptions.

Considering I was speed running WP last week for people and grouped with a few of our whm's and sch's I can easily tell you that our runs were not only faster but easier with the sch. A good sch can and will dot up mobs + Bane in the time it takes for the SCH shield and stoneskin to wear off. The SCH dot's over the cast do more dmg then Holy can come close to and the sch's threat is minimal where as a holy spamming whm will pull 1-2 mobs off me since normally all I am doing is Flashing then Riot blade for mp before the next pack.

Perhaps the issue isn't with the spells, actually I know it's not with the spells. This is completely your issue and a flat out misconception.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

If you've been running Wanderer's Palace as of late, you'll know how much better WHM is compared to SCH.

SCH needs a decent direct damage AoE. SCH DPS is far too DoT heavy, meaning you can't dance in-and-out of Cleric Stance.

What they need to do is simply turn Holy into a DoT.

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What are you smoking ?

SCH is amazing aoe

in AK and WP i never have to cast a single heal on trash or boss, unless the tank is super undergeared ( but i dont pug i only run with my FC, which we are all over geared )

Nerfing Holy would be stupid and pointless