Patch 2.1 - Leaving Group Penalty

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

And by leaving early and portraying elitist attitude, you are making the problem worse.

Dying is part of the dungeon experience. Everyone died the first time. Including relic wielders.

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Dying is part of the dungeon experience, correct. Every one of us have died in dungeons many times I'm sure. However, is dying 20 times to the same boss because someone decides they don't 'feel' like moving out of stuff or attacking adds, is that part of the experience too? What part does it get acceptable to just move on? Or is every single player expected to spend their 90 minutes of play time to stick it out and die to the same boss over and over because of one player's incompetence?

I was new once like everyone else, and yeah I made mistakes like everyone else. Not to the extent of causing my group to waste 90 minutes of their time on a boss. I don't think it's elitist at all to ask players to give it their best and not to be lazy so everyone has a good duty finder experience. And if they are selfish and ignore your request, to save yourself some time by leaving.

15 min is a good enough penalty. There are some groups that are hopeless for example HM Titan where you have people using white weapons and 20-30 accessories with AF gear. It's not being elitist if you have couple people like that on Titan HM there is no way mathematically you can win and people just don't want to spend time on it so they leave.

I don't remember my copy of FFXIV:ARR saying the following on the box:
"*Must have Youtube, Google, or Wiki Access in order to progress in game"

And I'm quite sure the individual who made the Youtube videos these elitist hold so graciously upon a pedestal were once new to the dungeon too and before they could confidently record their "easy" kill, they had died about 20 or so times themselves at one point. Practice makes perfect, not chance makes perfect.

If you don't have time to waste attempting a Primal encounter or a dungeon with random players that 60% of the time will contain new first-timers then why aren't you making a group run with individuals on your own server at scheduled times or even just with individuals you meet in chat that KNOW the fight?

You tanks blame us for not watching the video and not being as knowledgeable as you, but you continue to play in the duty finder where you know is the only place us players who don't have Free Companies or friends to play with are able to go in order to get some progression done on OUR schedule.

And because we have a different schedule than you, you call us names like "noobs" or "casuals" or "idiots" and worse. You say you don't have time to teach or us "carry" us, then don't queue with us in the first place, and don't insult us when you leave because all you're doing is breeding hatred as the norm for the community and I'm sure that isn't what any of us want.

Go ahead, slap a Gear-Checker on the Duty Finder, then you'll just have the problem of complaining when people HAVE the gear and yet still haven't done the fight before and tanks will leave again, or they'll do one attempt and because of one person's mistake, they'll bash players and leave anyways.

So yea, I do believe penalties need to be in place. I think the only people that aren't supporting the idea are the people that are already doing the "leaving" and just want to keep being able to do so, when in reality all they really need to do is just do dungeons with their own FC's or with their pick-up groups and let us players who want to utilize duty finder and don't mind wiping 5 or 6 times before we discuss giving up.

And as for Square, don't think you don't have a hand in the current rage that is swamping the Duty Finder community. Why aren't people allowed to join Primal encounters after someone leaves. You can't say it's the Time Limit, because even regular dungeons have time-limits. So why exactly don't you allow people to join in when someone leaves? Why do we all have to lose out and wait in a queue for 30-60 minutes because a tank or healer, or sometimes even a damage dealer didn't believe they needed to "waste" their time with us?

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Originally Posted by landua

*IF YOU ARE QUEUEING FOR DUTY FINDER...*
You should expect that you are going to have new people in Duty Finder dungeons and that YES, they won't know the fights. YES, you will have to take the time explaining them. If you don't wish to spend your time helping others, compensating for bad play, or dealing with undergeared players - MAKE YOUR OWN GROUP!

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EXACTLY! Duty finder is there so that people who don't have their own crew or FC members to help them, can run a dungeon. At the start, if a message pops up saying that some party members are new to this dungeon, I tell them what is coming up and what to do. If I'm new to a dungeon, I ask right away what is coming up, and what I should focus on. (I'm a BLM)

I don't want to read a walk through or watch a video of a dungeon before I go into it because that totally destroys the fun of discovery.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

. I'm sorry if people don't look into boss fights like these via the wiki or youtube but some people myself included hate spending a hour on what should be a 20 minute fight.

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Stop you right there. You play the cheat card. You're asking people to spoil/cheat the game without even trying.

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Originally Posted by xSinful_Snake

And as for Square, don't think you don't have a hand in the current rage that is swamping the Duty Finder community. Why aren't people allowed to join Primal encounters after someone leaves. You can't say it's the Time Limit, because even regular dungeons have time-limits. So why exactly don't you allow people to join in when someone leaves? Why do we all have to lose out and wait in a queue for 30-60 minutes because a tank or healer, or sometimes even a damage dealer didn't believe they needed to "waste" their time with us?

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I have my conjurer class up to level 27 from DF alone. Each Duty about 4 times. When I only do the dungeons new as DPS. When I do it as Healer I can easily tell who's underequipped/newbie because they lose HP so fast that I can't heal them. It takes 4 "cure" or 8 "medica" to heal a tank that has 1000hp at level 7. Neither of these cast instantly. Let the healer sleep a monster if you're dieing too fast, but we can't do that either if you don't put signs on them.

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

EXACTLY! Duty finder is there so that people who don't have their own crew or FC members to help them, can run a dungeon. At the start, if a message pops up saying that some party members are new to this dungeon, I tell them what is coming up and what to do. If I'm new to a dungeon, I ask right away what is coming up, and what I should focus on. (I'm a BLM)

I don't want to read a walk through or watch a video of a dungeon before I go into it because that totally destroys the fun of discovery.

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I don't mind explaining if the tank is new.

Good tanks mark the targets and then keep the enmity.

The funny thing about this last run I did in Haukke Manor, is that the party wiped out 4 times, and none of the wipes were at the boss. The tank didn't mark targets at all, and was losing HP so fast that I ran out of MP.

There is a 15 minute penalty and it's enough. iLvL gear check done by the game before being able to sign up is the best solution.

Afterall, primal battles cant have members added, so the one penalized should only be the guy leaving first as it is now. And for dungeons, they need to remove the optional "join party in progress" if they add more penalties, so people automatically gets pushed into groups in progress. If one member leaves, there really is no point in waiting for a new member as it currently works, especially if it's a healer or tank leaving, since both rarely check the box "in progress". Most heals and tanks dont want to join for a fail in progress. And if you sit and wait, you will have your time for completion consumed and you wont be in queue for a fresh run either.

I never leave first myself, unless it's a really horrible group that cant even handle the most simple things.

well on my sever in my fc my tank lvl 44 warrior and the other paladin tank we hit every one of or enmity builders and skill that build and the enimies just go flying past us to the other members even fc members that decided to help and the paladin in lvl 50 with all his af gear except a few things and he is doing hard mode to get the rest so i think there's problems in building enmity aka aggro

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Originally Posted by Ljonesj

well on my sever in my fc my tank lvl 44 warrior and the other paladin tank we hit every one of or enmity builders and skill that build and the enimies just go flying past us to the other members even fc members that decided to help and the paladin in lvl 50 with all his af gear except a few things and he is doing hard mode to get the rest so i think there's problems in building enmity aka aggro

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I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure how this contributes to the topic at hand, but aside from that, I too believe the enmity/aggro in this game is slightly defective in some manner that I can't quite put my finger on... it just seems broken at times, so much that I have to literally stop attacking as a damage dealer and just sit there until my enmity goes down.

well i figured were they are bashing tanks for not doing there jobs and holding the aggro and the healer leaves for or the tank leaves. i had a group were i tanked really great when no pets like the carbuncle were out. then i had another group were someone had the carbuncle out and i could not hold the aggro i asked him to put it up and he told me i could not do my job as the tank so yes i left but when u cant get to the first boss as constant wipes and also i got fed up once were i had to constantly run stone vigil i told one group what to do in the second boss fight and i marked, told them what to do stay out of the tornado and they just ingnored me. then trying to get to last boss cause i was trying to avoid a lot of the monsters but i had idiots pulling everything to me and i was overwhelmed and i had the healer tell me to do better i said stop pulling crap need to do this by logic

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Originally Posted by Ljonesj

well i figured were they are bashing tanks for not doing there jobs and holding the aggro and the healer leaves for or the tank leaves. i had a group were i tanked really great when no pets like the carbuncle were out. then i had another group were someone had the carbuncle out and i could not hold the aggro i asked him to put it up and he told me i could not do my job as the tank so yes i left but when u cant get to the first boss as constant wipes and also i got fed up once were i had to constantly run stone vigil i told one group what to do in the second boss fight and i marked, told them what to do stay out of the tornado and they just ingnored me. then trying to get to last boss cause i was trying to avoid a lot of the monsters but i had idiots pulling everything to me and i was overwhelmed and i had the healer tell me to do better i said stop pulling crap need to do this by logic

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Ljonesj, the example you just cave is the PERFECT example of when a "Vote-Kick" option needs to implemented. And because there isn't one, I understand why you'd leave. You have my complete agreement.