Lets Talk - Red Mage

Do we really need another RDM thread?

I sincerely hope they don't go down the buffing route with RDM. I've seen what happens in MMO's when they add too many support. Generally one is preferred because having two support starts to lower the DPS potential of the party in general.

So that means we'll either be using BRD or RDM.

And I see BRD as the support class right now. We don't need another Corsair.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

Do we really need another RDM thread?

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no, we don't. we could actually do without at least 70% of the threads that get posted, because they're all something that's already been talked to death.

people in this forum just really enjoy seeing the sight of their own words.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

RDM's were great soloers, stunners, tanks, debuffers and healers.

They only found their way into obscurity after SE killed RDM/NIN tanking and debuffs became less necessary with Abyssea and VW.

Upping the level cap made convert one less ability that RDM's had under their belt too. A lot of RDM's problems now-a-days is that pretty much everything they can do, other jobs can do better.

I don't know why everyone assumes they were always under-powered, they were one of the most necessary jobs for a long time.

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It's because most people either:

1. Never played FFXI and will hate on, which is a common trend on these forums.
2. Played FFXI and want XIV to be a unique snowflake compared to it's predecessor even though the game was beyond successful so it had to do something right.
3. Want XIV to resemble XI in no way -- I read in a topic people want "Store TP" and "Rolanberry items" to go away because it was used in FFXI, that's how far the ignorance goes.

RDM was the most powerful job in FFXI next to Blue Mage. I would say Samurai but that job was SE's favorite so it's not counted.

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Originally Posted by Yellow

The job should do what it was designed to do in Final Fantasy.

(The FFXI Red Mage seems more like a Time Mage -- Buffing/Debuffing, casting Refresh..)

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This pretty much sums it up. It should do what it was designed to do. It could
also end up doing that in this game. However it the old Class system. It will never
be able to be done in the current class system. On top of that, factor in PVP and
the class will be severely nerfed to balance them out.

I have always be opposed to PVP for that very reason. If PVP had separate battle
rules it wouldn't be a problem, However game designers never do that. Let's not get in to that because it's a different topic entirely.

People that love XI's RDM mostly do not take in to account the XI's job system made
RDM the "Jack of All" that it really WAS NOT.

The XI RDM was really weak by it's self. Case in point, The Maat fight. What happen
when you had no sub job? You instantly became a cupcake! Sub Jobs made RDM what it was. Without them you were instantly the weakest job in the game. Will just
call this truth and move on because I can spend days debating that point, and always win.

XI's RDM will NEVER happen in this game. it is just not possible to do. RDM in this game
will have to come from a brand new class. there is no way to get RDM to work from the
current classes. I think we can all agree fencer is were it will come from.

So what do we want? I would want a capable melee that uses Elemental swords
And uses removed Thm And Cnj Spells and Abilities

Fencers Being closley related to THM in lore, as in they are warriors of the THM religon
that moved from Uldah after to Isguard during the 5th Umbral era.

Fencer:

lvl 1 Radiance WS (Side Combo Astral Blade)
lvl 2 Dia (Combo Banish)
lvl 4 Damnation WS (Side Combo Umbral Blade)
lvl 6 Bio (Combo Scourge)
lvl 10 Sacrifice
lvl 14 Banish
lvl 18 Astral Blade WS (Adds astral Dmg to Blade)
lvl 22 Scourge
lvl 26 Umbral Blade WS (Adds Umbral Dmg to Blade)
lvl 30 Red Lotus Blade WS (Front Combo Flashfreeze
lvl 34 Stygian Spikes
lvl 38 Flashfreeze WS (Combo Levinblot)
lvl 42 Shadowfall WS(Rear Combo Shadowseer)
lvl 46 Levinbolt WS
lvl 50 Shadowseer WS


Red Mage (Fen 30 Thm 15)

1 Tranquility
2 Shell
3 Spirtsong
4 Elemental Fury WS (elemental melee attack, Dmg depends on weapon)
5 Soul Ward. Aoe "Reraise" 15 Minute

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Originally Posted by fusional

don't worry about pvp? why? because *you* don't care for it? don't be childish.

and okay, so you want to have debuffs/CC and perfectly strong melee at the cost of weaker magic, and you still don't see how this would be overpowered? list any debuffs melee currently have which actually have a major impact on the game. i'll wait. in the meantime let's talk about how many situations monk's 'evasion' ever matters in pve. so... yeah. taking that away from rdm isn't exactly hurting it.

you can cry about 'thinking outside the box' all you want but that still won't solve balance issues. see, in marketing they have tons of idea guys and one or two strategy guys who tell the idea guys whether or not that idea is good/possible or stupid/impossible in practice. i'm a strategy guy, and i'm trying to explain to you why your idea in its current form is simply unrealistic. it's not feasible. so i'm asking you to tweak it. and your response, rather than to answer a question i've posed, is to try taking the "pfffttt ur dum cant think outside da box" route? classy.

but here, let me help.

so we have a melee job which specializes in single target dps, excelling in short fights and against magic-weak foes. that's monk.

we have a melee job which does great single target and great aoe dps, excelling in longer battles. that's dragoon.

we have a melee job which does mediocre single target and good-to-great aoe dps, less squishy than other melee and excelling as an offtank. that's warrior.

we have a melee job which does poor damage but has high survivability and high threat. that's paladin.

we have a ranged job which does decent single target and good aoe dps, but makes up for this with range and support skills. bard.

we have a ranged job which does excellent single target and aoe dps as magic, but is limited by mp. black mage.

and we have a ranged job which does mediocre single target and aoe dps, but is a strong healer/buffer. white mage.

do you understand how class balance works yet? do you see how each of these classes do something slightly different from the others, specializing in different roles and excelling in different situations? so tell me where you see red mage fitting in with this picture while retaining balance in relation to the other classes and also having its own identity.

i'm all ears.

because about the only things i can see working are:

A. make it like xi with mediocre melee and magic damage, but strong buff/debuff/support abilities
B. give it fair single target damage with good aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities
C. give it good single target damage with mediocre aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities

you can't have 2 out of 3 being strong or the class breaks balance. unless you want the buffs/debuffs to be weak. but even then you still can't have it matching blm in magic damage or mnk/drg in melee damage- because it would still have things those classes do not.

understand better now?

so how do you plan on resolving that problem?

tip: try thinking of this from a disinterested, objective third party perspective rather than a "i like red mage and i want it to be like so and so" perspective

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Ok your coming off highly aggressive so if you want a fight I'm out it's not important enough to me. However since you don't seem to understand my thoughts ( no fault of yours I'm on a smart phone at work and having difficulty getting out my ideas due to a funky interface problem) I will repo d to you with my actual detailed ideas as soon as I can get to a computer. Bottom line though is the class can be done.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

Do we really need another RDM thread?

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yeah ppl will always make these threads and they always end up the same way, few ideas here and their, etc that are repeated over and over and over...over again! I stopped reading these threads and i mistakenly looked at this.

I have said it before and others have agreed. RDM on paper, in theory, personal opinions, fantasy,dreams etc will always work and seem very good to have in game. But in reality (especially in MMO'S) RDM will never work (offline games yes and maybe co op too), i say this because once the community finds 1,2,3 maybe 4 things RDM excels at ppl will cause the Job/class whatever to become a bot bitch in whatever it can do good. And its pretty clear what happened in XI and their is actual proof why RDM is a Dream job/class what it comes down to the bottom line. period! given all the issues SE will have to deal with RDM over time it being under powered at one point and over powered the next etc etc.

But i would be stunned & impressed if SE can pull it off with ARR and even if RDM makes it and the class/job actually be balanced and very viable, not a just a............

Well i do aggre with some of the post here. Yes Rdm will be hard to add. My personal guess is that it will be extremely under powered when it finally does come out.

That is only MY opinion cause i look at it that they will build it around PvP. Which sorry i don't agree with. I don't want them to not add PvP, it's just I don't think PvP when i think of the FF series. If i remember right only Final Fantasy Tactics, Dissidia, and 11 had PvP. And I see PvP turning into Ballista in 11, Fun for 1st year. Then hardly anyone touching it. (atleast on Siren)

I agree on not making Rdm a copy of 11. And when i said hastega and refreshga i meant if they add them. Yes it did keep me busy, but when i'm in a party (Pre-aby) with pld, blu, drk, smn, and a thf me. Them all wanting Haste and the Summoner being an ass hole not using garudas Hastega cause "Oh Haste is better than Garudas Hastega" I wanted to drown him in a pool of Lava. So by the time i finished the cycle of Refresh then haste i need to restart refresh while still trying to cure and/or enfeeble. Thats what drove me nuts.

And sorry to the people who are mad about another Red Mage post. Sorry not gonna surf the forums to find a old post to Necro bump it which would also probably piss you off. This is only a speculation topic you can read that in the title, you don't need to read or reply to it.

It's really easy, you want play RDM -> go play ffxi

I'd like to see RDM just as much as I'd like to see any Final Fantasy job in XIV. However, I have a fundamentally different view of RDM from some others.

To accurately view what RDM "is," we have to look at more than just XI. RDM is not a buffer job, it is not a debuffer job, and it is NOT a pure caster job sitting in the back line with the other mages. It is a front line, armor wearing, melee sword fighter that is able to cast both white and black lower level magic, never at the level of expertise of white or black mages of the same level. You don't see RDMs casting high level powerful magics.

That is their balancing mechanism.

Red Mages being front line combatants with casting ability is no different from Paladin or Dark Knight. If this capability makes RDM overpowered then you must also concede that the other classes mentioned are overpowered as well and I doubt anyone would make those claims.