Rewarding Skill, Emphasizing Risk/Reward, Current SP Problems and How to Fix it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Increasing the number of simultaneous overworld mob claims to 5 at once, so that AoE attacks play a larger part in non-leve battle (but with suitable safeguards in place to prevent exploits like Astral Burning).


Single claim only is BORING. Why do we even have AoE attacks if we can't even use them most of the time. AoE blasting multiple mobs is FUN. Increase the number of simultaneous claims to at least 5, so that I can have fun using Full Swing and Brandish. This will also give parties an avenue to create more strategies and give an outlet for emergent party gameplay.

This new claim system coupled with the SP chain system would discourage players from AOEing trash mobs for SP, since the gains would be rather minimal, and not worth it. The emphasis is always on fighting mobs that are an even match or harder - with increased rewards being directly proportional to the amount of risk a player takes.

---

It seems we have some new info regarding multiple mob claims.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foxclon

Q: 自身が占有できるモンスターグループが1つまでなのが少なすぎる
A: 占有システムの改修を予定しています。

---

Q: Claiming one monster at a time is too little.

A: We are planning to improve the claim system.

A little vague, but good news.

I cant see how they left the claim system at one per party even from the old team standpoint. All those interviews stating that XIV was going to focus on group v group battles had me thinking along the lines of classic FF battles (your party versus the enemy party or one huge monster).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teknoman

I cant see how they left the claim system at one per party even from the old team standpoint. All those interviews stating that XIV was going to focus on group v group battles had me thinking along the lines of classic FF battles (your party versus the enemy party or one huge monster).

---

i think it ended up being an issue with not having a lot of monsters able to be in the server at once, they have increased monster counts as they got better. Having mobs follow you may have made an interesting technique for multi hit types, like marauder. and alternate leveling patterns, but i they didnt have that many monsters, and people would have been upset if 1 high level would just gather everything in the zone and kill it.

Two major problems, the first is in the effects of raising the dLVL cap, the second with opening the AoE can of worms.

With the dlvl cap at 10, everyone pretty much is guaranteed 25k an hour let's say. Doesn't matter if you stack archers, or manaburn, or tp burn, take 3 people, 5 people, 8 people...you're pretty much going to get what the mob spawn rate tells you you'll get. Sucks. But at least it's 25k.

Now, raise the dlvl cap to 20. Now rank 30's are fighting rank 50 mobs. Or at least they're trying to. This stresses job balance and effectiveness, especially when the focus is on kills per minute and sp per hour.

Not every job is good at fighting at a dLVL of 20 when the focus is max kills per hour. In fact, the stress of that change will cause more than one of the meleeing jobs to stall out and fail and in their place will be the jobs who shine at rapidly killing a dLVL of 20.

The jobs that get stressed at the dLVL of 20 will be dropped or left in town. Jobs that excell at dLVL of 20 sp'ing will stick together. You've created a Russian Feast or Famine economy where you're either fat or you're starving.

Old setup:
Mrd mrd Pug Rng Lnc con thm

Enter: stress of dlvl 20 partying
Conclusions: mrd pug lnc stink. arc shines. Con stinks. Thm shines. Need a real tank.

New setup: Gld pops and is instantly taken. Gld, knowing they're wanted, doesn't party with setups that aren't heavy in arcs and thms. Anyone who'se not an arc or thm has harder time landing gld players. Thm, gld, and arc stick together to maximize their sp per our in this new stress level, leaving mrd pug lnc and con to fend for themselves.

Old setup: everyone gets 25k an hour
New setup: two kinds of parties. Ones that get 45k an hour and ones that get 15k an hour.

This was a real phenomenon in FFXI. Rangers got ranger ranger ranger brd brd cor parties. Dragoons got whm whm pld thf drg blu parties because that is the only thing that's left after stress divides the population.

And the second...you can't unleash mages to indiscriminately AoE the SP world. Summoner burns are already raring to go, and it was already abused to hell in XI with xp-getting, farming...everything.

@Peregrine:

The theoretical problems you proposed in the first half have more to do with job/class balance rather than problems with the SP system.


As for SMN burns, that was and issue caused by abusing level sync, call for help, and the EXP chain system. There are safegaurds you can put into FF14 to prevent abuse, like limiting the SP chain bonus to only consecutive enemy kills that are dlvl 7 or higher.

Ideally, the balance would be such: AOEing trash mobs for excessive SP isn't viable because it doesn't give enough SP per trash mob, and you get no bonus for killing weak mobs.

AOEing a mass of medium mobs for excessive SP isn't viable (unless you are good) since gathering them will take too long, and you'll probably die from all the attacks.

"Unless you are good" is the root of the problem as much as nothing mattering is. That's a myth. Nothing in the game requires the make or break "are you good?" check. and it is INCREDIBLY difficult to design MMOs to check a player's actual skill more than simple setup. Almost nothing you do as a player as "skilled" makes a difference. You can't skill your way out of not having two bards.

Thus, any attempt to "reward innovation and effort" is likely doomed to simply rewarding imbalance. It'll kill diversity. It'll force players to exclude people not out of inherent choice, but because they bring the "effort" and "innovation" required down.

You cannot talk about making the game more rewarding of innovation and effort without talking about the balance needed to sustain such a system without breaking.

Adding chroma ore to this game would DESTROY the economy. How much would they be? 80k each? 200k each? A million each? More? Probably more. Everything would go to ****. Because you can't add chroma ore to a game that is horribly economically balanced.

So it is with the battle system and reward for "innovation" and "effort."

There is no such thing until proven otherwise. There is only setups that make the cut and setups that don't.

If dLvl goes to 20 on sp, and that becomes the norm, that stress will result in the emergence of an elite class of sp'ers and a gimp class. The elite will stick together. The gimps will suffer the consequences. And it will have NOTHING to do with skill.

Then the class balanced needs to be based around the concept that "being good" = being able to think strategically, being able to adapt dynamically to different situations, being able to think quickly, being able to coordinate and cooperate efficiently as a party, being able to put together a good combination of gear and skills, and understanding well the gameplay mechanics.

There's somewhat of a fine line between that and "exploit", but that's all subject to balance changes like every other game out there. It's hard, but not impossible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Then the class balanced needs to be based around the concept that "being good" = being able to think strategically, being able to adapt dynamically to different situations, being able to think quickly, being able to coordinate and cooperate efficiently as a party, being able to put together a good combination of gear and skills, and understanding well the gameplay mechanics.

There's somewhat of a fine line between that and "exploit", but that's all subject to balance changes like every other game out there. It's hard, but not impossible.

---

It will never happen in a MMO. The engines are too clunky. The missions are too straight and derived. This game, and any MMO, almost can not be designed well enough to make thinking on your feet rewarding.

You by default have to already forsee every predictable outcome, and know precisely how to deal with it. This is how MMORPGs are won. Not by being good at them. But by counting on and already having solutions to predicted events.

MMOs aren't about being good. They're about following the protocol. This is why allakhazam scripting of what you "need" to bring ot a FFXI fight in terms of jobs works better than being good at jobs that aren't on that list.

I'm voting no confidence in the ability for ANY mmo player to reward effort and innovation. Can't be done. Has never been done, and this game ain't the one to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I'm voting no confidence in the ability for ANY mmo player to reward effort and innovation. Can't be done. Has never been done, and this game ain't the one to do it.

---

Tera does it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Tera does it.

---

How? Because the second they add the need for effort and innovation into this game is the second we're either all archers, all thaumaturges, or all exploit hunters.