Why Refunding Damage for Healing is Bad.

I did actually think about that and considered that (after making that post) yeah, spending ten to fifteen seconds of every twenty five healing is possibly a bit much, I didn't give the numbers or MP a huge amount of thought when I wrote up that post (I just thought about more healing demand). Upon further consideration, yes, one or two is a good starting point with room for spikes. What are your thoughts on adding MP costs to oGCDs and reducing costs for GCD heals? My thinking is then you have that trade-off where you can instantly heal at a higher resource cost or pay the movement cost to cast a GCD heal for less resource expense, I know that's very WHM-centric of me, I am a WHM main after all but I think it could work and bring MP management back to healers.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

As usual, You should try doing some actual content before you comment on topics like this. You don't do Savage. You don't even do Extremes

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This isn't my main char to be fair i mostly tank savage/exts but please stop trying to tell me this lmao and yeah sorry I don't want weirdos like you saying "oh your log isn't good enough" or whatever.

I'll comment when I please, if you want to argue, argue my points instead of being a weird stalker that looks up peoples logs thanks its not cute.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

It's not stupid at all. You're just mad because you chose to quit the game and some people aren't willing to validate your ignorant/outdated takes because of it. I can't fix that problem for you.

Did you just do one tier and then peace out?

Refunding Damage for healing solves an issue that has existed forever.
Making healing "damage neutral" mitigates braindead greedy healers from griefing the party just to try and do more dps.

You should know that, right?

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With this logic it technically it solves "greedy healers griefing the party" like actually sure? yeah woah you're telling me healers have room to mess up and play bad? woah that's insane! almost like jobs should have some sort of skill celling instead of making healers really bland and even more boring for absolutely no reason.

Im sorry but support jobs should have room to mess up their utility skills and if the only thing your solving is removing ANY room for the healer to be less greedy while creating more issues with how boring you're going to make healer then you obviously just have some sort of issue because a PF healer was greedy and it made you cry.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

It's not stupid at all. You're just mad because you chose to quit the game and some people aren't willing to validate your ignorant/outdated takes because of it. I can't fix that problem for you.

Did you just do one tier and then peace out?

Refunding Damage for healing solves an issue that has existed forever.
Making healing "damage neutral" mitigates braindead greedy healers from griefing the party just to try and do more dps.

You should know that, right?

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“Solves an issue that has existed forever”

How would you know, you started in EW.

For someone who likes to tell everyone why their opinions don’t matter because of x y z reason you have literally 0 authority to talk on how the game played prior to EW and how we ended up in the situation we are in right now

Modern savage and job design created the problem we have now, and now apparently only people who do modern savage are allowed to have an opinion on how to fix it

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

[...]Refunding Damage for healing solves an issue that has existed forever.
Making healing "damage neutral" mitigates braindead greedy healers from griefing the party just to try and do more dps[...]

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Damn, maybe we should push SAM design into Midare Mage that spams Midare every GCD with 25y range and without cast time. How dare they mess up their rotation and potentially griefing my PF to fail an enrage??

Yeah, where are these greedy healers now? Oops, still around apparently. That worked out sooo well for 2-3 expacs, eh? :clown:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Damn, maybe we should push SAM design into Midare Mage that spams Midare every GCD with 25y range and without cast time. How dare they mess up their rotation and potentially griefing my PF to fail an enrage??

Yeah, where are these greedy healers now? Oops, still around apparently. That worked out sooo well for 2-3 expacs, eh? :clown:

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Its funny because people will always cry when support jobs can mess up and cause wipes but then they will cry that dps rotations aren't interesting anymore, almost like making jobs simple and more boring negatively effects everyone, despite that theirs a sub section of players who only care about their job feeling bad.

Jobs should have some skill floor; with Healers, healing should be important doing damage should have some level of risk vs reward, Tanks they should actually have to time mitigations and not be immortal, DPS rotations should be hard to master.

All jobs should be responsible to the parties success, having a bad healer doesn't mean you have to rework and simplify healer until 100% of healers are good enough, No people should actually have to learn how to balance Damage vs Healing.

I also do realise modern design goes against healer damaging healing and damage more because of how much free cooldowns they have, I've always said the right design direction for healers is to reduce resources while increasing some small dps Options here and there (i dont think healers need a full on rotation) The healing on healers should be a active trade off that you have to make in some situations.

another small point is if healing isn't important and trivial like it would be then whats even the point of having these new healing skills on PLD or bard being added? outside of flavour it seems absolutely useless in anything that isn't a no healers run.

Saying modern healer design damage refund or free healing resources means there will be no healer greeding and causing wipes is laughable. I've still seen healers who don't press their vast myriad of free heals as a DPS player sits at 30% HP for 15 seconds and dies to a raidwide, I still see wipes from full HP because the healers don't use their free mitigation/shields, I still see tanks randomly dying to autoattacks because neither healer wants to throw a free heal.

Greed is a player issue, not a job design issue, it should not be accounted for when designing a job.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Saying modern healer design damage refund or free healing resources means there will be no healer greeding and causing wipes is laughable. I've still seen healers who don't press their vast myriad of free heals as a DPS player sits at 30% HP for 15 seconds and dies to a raidwide, I still see wipes from full HP because the healers don't use their free mitigation/shields, I still see tanks randomly dying to autoattacks because neither healer wants to throw a free heal.

Greed is a player issue, not a job design issue, it should not be accounted for when designing a job.

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Player behavior always has to be considered. This is just naive.

Its why the original cleric stance and tank stance dancing was removed.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

Player behavior always has to be considered. This is just naive.

Its why the original cleric stance and tank stance dancing was removed.

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"Provoke should be removed because tanks have aggro wars in alliance raids."
"Shirk should be removed because it can be used to kill DPS players."
"Tengentsu and Arcane Crest should be removed because SAM and RPR stand in AoEs to pop it."
"Aetherial Manipulation should be removed because BLMs can drop their AoE on other players with it."

See how every job can be problematic if you consider player behaviour?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

See how every job can be problematic if you consider player behaviour?

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See how you can make really bad posts if you presume you can just make up player behaviour instead of looking at what is actually happening ingame.

Don't be facetious. You know very well what the person you quoted was saying, you just choose to try ridicule it lest you had to accept that not only is it a very valid counter-argument to what you said, it is also very obvious something the devs already supported in the past (and not just FFXIV's devs).
Bad and unnecessary designs get removed all the time, and both words are partially influenced by player engagement and perspective, not just clinical design analysis. If players don't enjoy a mechanic, and it happens to a large enough degree that the devs feel it impacts the overall "feeling" among players, they'll have to look at it at some point. No matter how objectively perfect your game is designed, players gotta enjoy and like it. If they don't, it isn't actually as perfect as you might have thought it is.

You'll note that even in your examples, points #2 and #3 have in fact been changed by the devs already, and shirk can't actively "drop" aggro any more (it moves 25%, so even both tanks shirking onto the same person would not work), meanwhile most raid fights kill players on failure to avoid mechanics instead of just hurting them, or give them damage downs, specifically to negate intentional AoE exposure and allow the devs to utilize such mechanics on classes without having to worry about this any more.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

There's ways to get us to press Healing GCDs more often, that aren't necessarily super 'punishing' to a more casual player

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One thing I want to highlight is that this isn't a problem in other games. We always pretend like it'd be a huge issue if they expected actually serious amounts of raw healing, and yet other MMORPGs all show that no, players understand that you can mash the green buttons just as much as the red ones, button mashing is an innate MMORPG-player-skill.