Mentor Status Requirements need to change

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Lock mentor status behind the savage tier, at least the full crown.

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There isn't really a point to that. The main feature of the mentor system is getting access to the Novice Network to answer questions that sprouts have. They typically asks questions that do not require Savage-level knowledge, such as:

• "how do I repair my gear?"
• "where do I buy gysahl greens?"
• "how can I get better gear?" (as in poetic gear or opening quest coffers, not endgame gear)
• "why do I not see the quest icon that I'm supposed to see?" (they typically began the quests already years ago)

Sometimes they ask about their rotation, but typically these players are level 15, level 50 or level 70. I've seen many obnoxious raid-centric mentors answer with a full description of the max level opener and a link to The Balance discord and Savage raiding advice... like, for sprouts that just need to know the basics. They aren't ready to do an optimized opener; they barely understand how to do their 1-2-3 rotation, and don't have access to most abilities the mentor is talking about...

It's also not necessary to have raided the latest tier to understand how raiding works in FFXIV, so it would make more sense to just say "have any Extreme or Savage achievement from the current expansion", because then they have a rough idea of what High-End raid mechanics are like. That is plenty of knowledge to be able to explain to someone how High-End content works (in a general sense).

I do think the requirements should be more strict though, of course. All jobs should be maxed, all role quests, and for crafters they should have all crafters and gatherers leveled with achievements indicating lots of crafts and sales on the market board.

For what it's worth, most battle mentors have all jobs leveled and most trade mentors have all crafters/gatherers leveled, and a lot of mentors have done High-End content at some point if not still doing it - making the requirements more strict would just make sure people don't get these status before doing these things, which results in speedrunning the trade mentor status.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There isn't really a point to that.

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Well, a sprout could just as well have a question about ultimates/savage. I had a sprout ask the other day where they can redeem the Weapon's Refrain (Ultimate) totem. Just as likely someone could ask about rotational stuff about Weapon's Refrain (Ultimate), since it is not high level content.

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Sometimes they ask about their rotation, but typically these players are level 15, level 50 or level 70. I've seen many obnoxious raid-centric mentors answer with a full description of the max level opener and a link to The Balance discord and Savage raiding advice... like, for sprouts that just need to know the basics.

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This would've been so useful for when I was a sprout. The balance has all the information I need, instead of 3-5 mentors all giving contradictory (and often inaccurate) information about rotations. Half the mentors I see in experts do less damage than me, on white mage.

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It's also not necessary to have raided the latest tier to understand how raiding works in FFXIV

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How do you know? It's like saying I don't need to go into PF and raid to be able to say people are overblowing the PF issues.

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"have any Extreme or Savage achievement from the current expansion"

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It feels like a lot of people want to make mentor requirements tighter, but only to a point that THEY THEMSELVES have achieved, "Make it harder ... nooo, not like that!"

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That is plenty of knowledge to be able to explain to someone how High-End content works (in a general sense).

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I would rather have someone who is a much more trustful source of information be a battle mentor, than someone who was dragged through the latest extreme with 12 deaths, because it has no DPS check. It's not like I'd go to the dentist to a guy that has done a few months at med school.

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All jobs should be maxed, all role quests

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This provides absolutely zero value, though. Role quests are just story, not any kind of battle knowledge. You can level all your jobs through MSQ roulette to 100 and never leave lvl 50 content--it's what most people do for jobs they don't want to play, but want the 100s achievement.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

I had a sprout ask the other day where they can redeem the Weapon's Refrain (Ultimate) totem.

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That definitely isn't a normal question in the Novice Network, and have never seen it despite crossing worlds and data centers to see the questions in other networks.

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Just as likely someone could ask about rotational stuff about Weapon's Refrain (Ultimate), since it is not high level content.

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What one mentor doesn't know, another will. That's the intention of the system, and it works very well. One of the mentors in the Novice Network will know about Weapons Refrain under the current system (usually, multiple people do).

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This would've been so useful for when I was a sprout.

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Alright, but consider that not everyone would be able to handle the overload from The Balance (or a quote from it). Many people that do the MSQ are the partner of a "gamer" and not very good at games themselves ie. a person's wife or husband that was dragged into playing the game, when they never used computers/consoles much prior.

Some people who do the MSQ are not very technical types - they aren't the sort of people that can handle "systems" and "engineering" (ie. computers, science, maths, programming, and yes, optimizing an MMORPG build).

When I help sprouts I am aware that some people have a brain that can handle that sort of stuff, and are hungry for stuff like The Balance. But I am equally aware that many are not, and cater my advice to what they indicate they can handle at that point in their journey.

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How do you know?

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I mean, people rarely ask about the current tier. Here is why. Sprouts almost universally exit the Novice Network prior to beating the current expansion MSQ. Returners are typically asking how to gear up for the current Savage tier or how to find the quest for the latest MSQ chapter, so they can get ready for Savage, but by the time they are doing Savage itself they don't tend to be talking in there.

And once again, in the rare event someone does ask about the current tier, what one mentor doesn't know, another will and that's by design. SE knows that not everyone will know everything, so there are multiple mentors.

SE also knows that time is everything. By the time someone has filled the battle requirements, usually they have done some kind of High-End content and can explain what the difference is between normal content and High-End content.

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I would rather have someone who is a much more trustful source of information be a battle mentor

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Most battle mentors have honestly played for years. I just support making them tighter to make sure it is years. Because years of play usually equals knowledge and experience. That years of experience is value, and it's why most of the issues come from trade mentors that got the status too quickly (as a sprout).

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This provides absolutely zero value, though. Role quests are just story, not any kind of battle knowledge.

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That's actually not true of the role quests that I remember since Shadowbringers. The role quests test your healing ability (if you don't heal, Esuna, etc, you fail it). If you don't do mechanics as a DPS you fail it. If you don't use Interrupt etc as a tank you fail it. All of which people frequently say should be taught to everyone, but at least they get mentors to go through it. I'm not saying it's hard to do those things, but if you don't do those basic things the battles tend to get failed.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That definitely isn't a normal question in the Novice Network

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I've never seen a sprout ask where to get, or even know what gysahl greens are.

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What one mentor doesn't know, another will.

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Not if there is no requirement to know it. You could just as well say this for the current state, so there's no need to make it more time-extensive when it won't make more informed/experienced mentors.

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Alright, but consider that not everyone would be able to handle the overload from The Balance

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That's what you'd have mentors for, they'd explain it to you step-by-step.

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Some people who do the MSQ are not very technical types

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They're not also the ones asking for help with rotations. You can freestyle a rotation just fine, you don't actually need to chain combos together or press oGCDs.

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SE knows that not everyone will know everything, so there are multiple mentors.

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So, what's the point of making the requirement more strict? Not even in a meaningful way that improves the knowledge/experience level of a mentor.

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I mean, people rarely ask about the current tier. Here is why

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No, I'm asking how do you KNOW "to understand how raiding works in FFXIV," if you've never done it?

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Most battle mentors have honestly played for years.

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Completely, and utterly, meaningless. If you spend those years doing nothing that will test your knowledge and make you more experienced, then absolutely meaningless.

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The role quests test your healing ability (if you don't heal, Esuna, etc, you fail it).

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Brah .. come on.

If you want to gatekeep mentor status, then don't draw the line selfishly at what you personally have already achieved. If you think SQE should make mentor status more strict to achieve, then accept that it might mean you have to aspire harder for it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

I've never seen a sprout ask where to get, or even know what gysahl greens are.

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Oddly I have seen it many times over the years. Because they need to know how to get their chocobo to fight with them. But point is a lot of questions are about quests and very basic stuff you do at the start of the game.

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Not if there is no requirement to know it.

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It's statistics and I have years upon years of experience talking to mentors so I know for a fact there is always someone in the Novice Network that has done Savage and realistically, some of them have done Ultimates and are not afraid to talk about it in those networks.

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That's what you'd have mentors for, they'd explain it to you step-by-step.

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The issue is information overload. The step-by-step generally needs to be a few steps per day or per week, because it takes time to digest for many new players. That's why it only makes sense to explain the 1-2-3 and most basic stuff, not the sort of stuff you're doing as an opener in Savage at level 100. And that's why in practice answers to questions that sprouts have rarely need knowledge of what you're doing in Savage at level 100.

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No, I'm asking how do you KNOW "to understand how raiding works in FFXIV," if you've never done it?

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That's why I said "any Extreme or Savage" in the current expansion. It gives you a sense of the difference in how the mechanics differ. Different telegraphing, combining mechanics, etc. While yes, they could have just done a 1 pull prog of Everkeep ex, it's still ultimately better than any High-End duty from previous expansions because you can just solo a lot of them quickly.

If the requirement was "current Savage tier" then you're looking at a lot of people suddenly losing it every tier for no reason and there being a massive shortage of mentors for weeks, when not many questions even pertain to it.

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Completely, and utterly, meaningless. If you spend those years doing nothing that will test your knowledge and make you more experienced, then absolutely meaningless.

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While true, it doesn't make much sense to spend years playing the game and do nothing and learn nothing, so usually time means knowledge in most cases.

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If you want to gatekeep mentor status, then don't draw the line selfishly at what you personally have already achieved. If you think SQE should make mentor status more strict to achieve, then accept that it might mean you have to aspire harder for it yourself.

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Well the point is I don't want them to gatekeep it in that specific way. It doesn't make much sense when almost no sprout questions pertain to it or require raiding knowledge in any way, shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's statistics and I have years upon years of experience talking to mentors so I know for a fact there is always someone in the Novice Network that has done Savage and realistically, some of them have done Ultimates and are not afraid to talk about it in those networks.

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Yet we can't find a mentor who has gone through the rigorous training of pressing esuna and interject? Why does explaining how to navigate The Balance, and click on your job in the discord to bring up the GCD timeline require a week of instruction?

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That's why it only makes sense to explain the 1-2-3 and most basic stuff, not the sort of stuff you're doing as an opener in Savage at level 100

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We need mentors to have all lvl 100s and do every role quest, and have years of experience for explaining how to 123?

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While yes, they could have just done a 1 pull prog of Everkeep ex, it's still ultimately better than any High-End duty from previous expansions because you can just solo a lot of them quickly.

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I'm not sure how this translates to someone being considered knowledgeable enough to be warranted the "mentor" status, if we're interested in increasing the quality of mentors. Going to just agree to disagree, especially this tier.

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Then you're looking at a lot of people suddenly losing it every tier for no reason and there being a massive shortage of mentors for weeks

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Good? Quality over quantity, right?

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It doesn't make much sense to spend years playing the game and do nothing and learn nothing

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I agree. It doesn't make sense, but most mentors literally have been playing for years. We have some people like that in this post, like the person I originally responded to, to make savage the requirement for mentorship. They seem to think mentors are too trash and give horrible advice these days, yet from what I've heard, they aren't particularly exceptional or engaging in any content. Gosh, not even 100 on every job!

Personally, I think the mentor system is fine as it is; people put way too much emphasis on the mentor status. 1500 commends is more than enough time for you to know how to 123, and pass that info down. And if they don't, like you said, there's going to be a mentor that knows how to do that ... so why alter the requirements? Sure, they might give wrong rotational advice, but most of the people here probably would do that anyways.

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Well the point is I don't want them to gatekeep it in that specific way. It doesn't make much sense when almost no sprout questions pertain to it or require raiding knowledge in any way, shape or form.

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Just funny how people oddly conveniently shape the requirements as something THEY are comfortable with, or have achieved already, and make a barrier like "ALL 100 LEVELS, 5000 hours played!!" when that teaches you absolutely nothing vast majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Lock mentor status behind the savage tier, at least the full crown.

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Why? What purpose would this serve?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I do think the requirements should be more strict though, of course. All jobs should be maxed, all role quests, and for crafters they should have all crafters and gatherers leveled with achievements indicating lots of crafts and sales on the market board.

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What purpose would this serve? Besides making mentor roulette even harder to unlock and thus making it so even fewer people are able to use it for its intended purpose of providing basic knowledgeable fills for the rest of the roulettes?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Most battle mentors have honestly played for years. I just support making them tighter to make sure it is years. Because years of play usually equals knowledge and experience. That years of experience is value, and it's why most of the issues come from trade mentors that got the status too quickly (as a sprout).

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Playing for years might also mean having not done the MSQ in years, making it harder to ask questions that sprouts tend to ask. "Why can't I complete this quest?" etc. More strict requirements simply don't make better mentors. The willingness to help is the most important factor there is and you can't translate that into a level or experience requirement.

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That's actually not true of the role quests that I remember since Shadowbringers. The role quests test your healing ability (if you don't heal, Esuna, etc, you fail it). If you don't do mechanics as a DPS you fail it. If you don't use Interrupt etc as a tank you fail it. All of which people frequently say should be taught to everyone, but at least they get mentors to go through it. I'm not saying it's hard to do those things, but if you don't do those basic things the battles tend to get failed.

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I doubt that these matter much. You can clear them and then just kind of forget them The latest healer rolequest doesn't even require Esuna really. You can outheal all the dots I'm pretty sure, which is technically better than using Esuna in most cases in actual content since healer resources are so high and most effects aren't threatening outside of doom.

Agreed that NN system in general needs to be changed... I got just as much help from fellow sprouts than I did mentors, and usually questions were either ignored or spun off into a whole separate conversation. Not to mention mentors that were just annoying in the chat and everyone being too scared to kick each other, even when they clearly deserved it. Comm begging for the crown is also annoying.

Mentor system is a joke because people farm 1500 coms very easily with spams of guildheist and emote spam / beg in roulette. Novice chat also deserves to be changed to global chat because that's the only purpose of novice chat right now since this game lacks a proper global chat.

Mentors usually don't even help with questions but rather force a sprout or someone new to find answers themselves. Most mentors wouldn't even help someone unsync content for story but rather brag 30 minutes about "why you should wait 3 hours in queue" and sit in limsa afk. Ask for any help or queuing people in nn and you get lashed out by mentors for "we aren't your mates to help you, don't abuse this chat". But when it's talk about ERP and sex jokes, then it's free to talk about that.

Mentor roulette is also made for one purpose -> to fill spots where they are needed. That's it. That simple. It was never about "mentors helping to clear content", nah it was just a purpose to fill toxic and most obnoxious trials so you can act as a filler since nobody wants to do them. A complete joke system. Trade mentor is even easier.