Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Ultima unreal was pretty much normal mode difficulty. The only mechanic that can wipe the raid is the orbs. That's casual content. You can go in with no prep and clear in a few pulls.

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We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here - I think it takes more than a few pulls to learn from scratch. Orbs was the main thing, but there was a sequence of attacks to remember so you had time to move to safe spots. And some tank swaps. Call it a skill issue if you like. It was easily one evening though, which made it a lot of fun. From my experience most people want to have a go at something harder than the usual normal mode, but aren't willing or able to commit to the amount of time it would take to learn something as difficult as savage. Half-savage would be good.

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Originally Posted by Voryn

The biggest problem with this whole discussion/argument is that people are coming from different contexts and then are communicating with each other in a way that doesn’t work. “Casual,” “Midcore,” and “Hardcore” are meaningless. People begging for “Midcore” content have ended up getting what Japan calls “Midcore.”

And now you might have the privilege of spending ten pages here arguing with experienced raiders about what is and isn’t “Midcore, unless you focus more on what exactly the content should be like rather than what label you put on it.

My first clear of Dawntrail’s second Extreme was when our best available gear was around ilvl 710, and we had thirteen deaths in it (me being one of them lol) so to me it definitely doesn’t have a hardcore dps requirement and is not super strict about mechanics either. But that’s still not what you’re looking for, and it doesn’t help so far when anyone says “but it’s not that hard???? You don’t need to be crazy good to beat it????”

How would your hypothetical “midcore” content test you in a way that’s higher than Normal raids but not as much as Extreme? Mechanics need to require you to them, otherwise they may as well not exist. Dps checks might need to exist, so people press their buttons and also aren’t dying a crazy amount. What would the content need to be like so that there’s more of a challenge than normal mode but people aren’t getting carried?

On the other hand I do end up on the viewpoint of “just do Extreme but take your time with it.”

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The type of content most people who are asking in NA for midcore already exists; it’s functionally BA (without its dumb entry requirements) or orbornne before they nerfed it into the ground. You could also argue the Diablo armament and some of the hardest CE’s fall into this (like Zadnor belias)

Their mechanics matter because if you do them wrong you WILL die, but you don’t take the rest of the raid with you and they don’t need specific strat coordination that on NA basically necessitates PF

just let people go in and get belted by the content and maybe wipe more or twice but still have it done by random queueing. Lax enrages like AV/ozma also wouldn’t go astray

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The difficulty of it can vary a bit but take Byakko Extreme (which is the current unreal trial). You can literally take in 8 sprouts and clear that within the timer... if not 1 pull.

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Thanks for the tip on Byakko. We'll try learning that (if we can get a PF to fill).

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Originally Posted by Voryn

... focus more on what exactly the content should be like rather than what label you put on it.

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Just the first phase of O12S, or maybe a little less. That would make for a good challenge, but wouldn't take an aeon of prog.

Why are we suddenly considering extremes and Savages midcore? Will Ultimates be midcore next?

Hardcore content:
Clearing an ultimate
Clearing savage in week 1
Criterion savage
Going for the titled ranks in crystal conflict (top 300 per DC)

Midcore content:
Clearing savage after week 1
Criterion normal
Getting to crystal rank in crystal conflict
Chaotic alliance raids
Large scale field operation content
Extreme trials

Casual content:
Everything else

Hope this clears it up for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Hardcore content:
Clearing an ultimate
Clearing savage in week 1
Criterion savage
Going for the titled ranks in crystal conflict (top 300 per DC)

Midcore content:
Clearing savage after week 1
Criterion normal
Getting to crystal rank in crystal conflict
Chaotic alliance raids
Large scale field operation content
Extreme trials

Casual content:
Everything else

Hope this clears it up for everyone.

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Clearing savage after week 1 and field operation being in the same content range is a pointlessly wide definition just as some argue what a lot of people are asking for is a pointlessly narrow definition

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Hardcore content:
Clearing an ultimate
Clearing savage in week 1
Criterion savage
Going for the titled ranks in crystal conflict (top 300 per DC)

Midcore content:
Clearing savage after week 1
Criterion normal
Getting to crystal rank in crystal conflict
Chaotic alliance raids
Large scale field operation content
Extreme trials

Casual content:
Everything else

Hope this clears it up for everyone.

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It doesn't for two reasons. 1. That is not the definition used by many people in this thread; 2. Any definition that classifies content by when it is cleared is flawed, outside of outgearing and unsynching considerations.

Why are we suddenly considering extremes and Savages midcore? Will Ultimates be midcore next?

Because that's what the lead battle designer said in an interview: “During the 6.x era, we received a lot of player feedback regarding a lack of midcore content, as well as a strong desire for more large-scale content. The chaotic alliance raid is our direct response to these requests. With that in mind, we decided our target audience would primarily be those who fall somewhere between extreme trials and the first two savage encounters.."

Because as has been pointed out JP’s definition of midcore is exactly that