Dawntrail’s Narrative Missteps: Why Natsuko Ishikawa’s Touch Is Sorely Missed

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Originally Posted by Nasigno

The core issue with that, the issue is yes they are professional writers, but the same can be said about the team that made Acolyte. Do tell me how well that did?

They have to write a good story around the narrative they have made themselves. Which is essentially the "real threat that made everything" was never eluded to and had a very mediocre introduction that was cleaned up almost immediately with no consequence. The threats that have been in existence since the dawn of time are no more. And now at best we just instilled two naive and incompetent leaders to a tribal nation. Cause that is all we got going, nobody anywhere else is going to play a political subterfuge game with the person who literally has saved the star from doom.

I want this to continue with a great story, and even for DT they could of done so much more with the two antagonist. A much better depth to their actions, or even say flip who was the final boss for 7.0. Could of made a much more impactful need for one to do the bidding of the other. However we got what we got, they could of had it far more built up than just "TIME DISTORTION" being the excuse for why they were ready to do what they did. Could of been a plan that was in motion for far longer. But again, we got what we got.

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I don't disagree that they could have done so much more and all. Believe me I don't defend anything here.
But I disagree on one thing.
Yes we saved the star and all but honestly that doesn't put us above all law.
If enough damage is done from who knows what and people think it is the WoL fault or even part of a grant scion (or Sharlayan) sheme then it doesn't matter if the rulers are on our side.
The whole "rulers dictate peace with beast tribes and Garlemald" is completely unrealistic anyway because the citizens don't know the details and had generations of prejudice.
The whole of Aetheris is at peace now so outside of political stuff I don't know where any problems could occur there anymore outside of small skirmishes in less important regions.

But that doesn't matter.
Fact is that we both agree that the writers need to do better and find a solution. If not then the story will continue to be mediocre and the next region will have the same carricature problems as Tural had.

Sure a smart villian would be a nice touch, which sure the Sharalayan seem a good fall point given their involvement in quite a number of plot points.

However I doubt we willingly would do anything that catastrophic to lose the people. At best it would have to be outsiders. Which I guess with the current plot is a good example of that possibility.

We are very much above the law. Things curtail to us on a dime regardless of precedents or procedure. If we deem it necessary everything falls in line. I mean even the impact of just having to kill everyone around us was thrown as "that won't be as funny when we forced to kill them all." We just have too much sway everywhere we been.

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Originally Posted by Nasigno

Sure a smart villian would be a nice touch, which sure the Sharalayan seem a good fall point given their involvement in quite a number of plot points.

However I doubt we willingly would do anything that catastrophic to lose the people. At best it would have to be outsiders. Which I guess with the current plot is a good example of that possibility.

We are very much above the law. Things curtail to us on a dime regardless of precedents or procedure. If we deem it necessary everything falls in line. I mean even the impact of just having to kill everyone around us was thrown as "that won't be as funny when we forced to kill them all." We just have too much sway everywhere we been.

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That quote was made while being held at gunpoint and ambushes in foreign territory though.
If we went on a murder spree just like that I am pretty sure the city state leader of that region would have some serious questions.
The scions meddle in grey areas from time to time like smuggling into Sharlayan for example but they and is are pretty careful to not step too much over the law.

Nevertheless.
I just don’t think we need an immortal organization like the Ascians to make a good threat.
We also don’t know if something else couldn’t be outside there or what exactly other shards are doing right now (or if Sphene accidentally alerted them of us in our final battle).

But imo we can brainstorm all we want here and the storyboard can be the best in the world.
If the writers continue to write in this amateurish manner and twist it all into a self conscious meme then it will just fall flat anyway.

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Originally Posted by cashmoney109

They should bring back Maehiro. ShB/EW were fun but it really feels like the game lost something that made it special when the focus shifted away from political drama to something more in line with a standard JRPG plot. Ishikawa is really good at tugging on your heart strings and making things feel bombastic and epic but she also made a lot of hugely questionable world building decisions. I think if the goal is to ground the story again and set up a strong foundation for another big arc then Maehiro is really the most suited to the task.

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I'm unconvinced that Ishikawa is good at bigger storylines. She wrote good small storylines in HW through SB and one good character in ShB, but Endwalker was a mess and a lot of the pacing issues could be pinned on the fact that it was supposed to be two expansions that Yoshida and her decided to condense. We've also continued to see potentially big storylines get heavily condensed in 6.1 and on despite her moving to a supervisor position, but I have no idea if that's her input or just Hiroi and company trying to emulate 6.0.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I'm unconvinced that Ishikawa is good at bigger storylines. She wrote good small storylines in HW through SB and one good character in ShB, but Endwalker was a mess and a lot of the pacing issues could be pinned on the fact that it was supposed to be two expansions that Yoshida and her decided to condense. We've also continued to see potentially big storylines get heavily condensed in 6.1 and on despite her moving to a supervisor position, but I have no idea if that's her input or just Hiroi and company trying to emulate 6.0.

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I fully believe Yoshida meddled in the Endwalker story as he wasn't a fan of the "Maybe Hydaelyn not actually 100% good? Maybe it's all shades of grey and you should have reason to question her?" lines of thought that Ishikawa introduced in Shadowbringers. It's evident in how the Scions treat her when they finally meet and Y'shtola doesn't have a single piece of criticism to levy at her. It's doubly so evident when Ishikawa reintroduced those questions in the post MSQ Omega followup sidequest.

Regardless of who had the most impact on the DT MSQ, it can be agreed that the team responsible for it and all of its facets need to deliver something better. It felt like someone who was used to making controversial storytelling was told "You know the thing you're best at? Yeah, remove about 90% of that and do this instead; we can't have too much dark stuff. This is supposed to be a light-hearted venture." DT wasn't even 'good', it was boring. It had some good parts, but ultimately it was boring and annoying with the same message on repeat from the same character for most of the story, which is the driving point of the entire game. They need to clean things up and reevaluate their direction moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The other thing I can agree with people on is they over-explained things. When I got to Yyasulani and talked to Alisaie I was immediately thinking "I get it, time has accelerated by decades here similar to on The First", then I had to painfully watch the NPCs figure this out very slowly and not always voice cutscenes.

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This so much, sometimes i feel like they make the game for 8 year olds... or our friends are all... well... stupid lol

It was the same at UT when you get there, see the same area as back then at omega 10, find the base with the same stuff that was found within Omega's Zone...


Like if it was only Erenville and Wuk, sure, but those who HAVE BEEN on the first, witnessing the faster timeflow themselfs... its sad...

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

This so much, sometimes i feel like they make the game for 8 year olds... or our friends are all... well... stupid lol

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I do get why to a degree. There are returning players from years ago who probably forgot stuff. But personally, I find the most important stuff comes back to me when I need it, maybe in an extremely vague way but it's enough to figure out what's going on. And perhaps also because there are people who don't follow the story properly, read it in a sloppy way and just skip through text a lot, so they made sure to repeat everything a lot to make sure it was conveyed.

But by the point you get to Dawntrail, you've had super complicated stuff discussed since ARR like the details of a sharlayan scholarship from all the former Sharlayan students surrounding you, Eorzean and Gyr Abanian politics that involve us sitting in on regular political meetings, frequent use of "New World" and "Old World" to confuse players who didn't reach Old Sharlayan or Tural yet, the scentific nature of aether that translates to what we know in real life as physics and biology that is over most people's head, the difference between The Echo, the Blessing of Light and their capabilities and origins.

After all that, wanting to make everything easy to understand is too much too late. :D

I respect the work Ishikawa put on 5.0.

But her "writing hands" so to speak aren't clean when it comes to Dawntrail. She was the one who commissioned Smile. And for better or for worse the tone and lyrics of Smile fit with the terrible writing of the expansion's MSQ. She clearly approved what was being done, if not directly influenced it.

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Originally Posted by Nasigno

The drop was apparent in Endwalker before even Dawntrail was on the table. It is held high but still feel it did not deliver upon a conclusion that is as well delivered as it deserved. Truly Endwalker felt it could of been spread across two expansions to give a better end as everything felt compressed.

From how the Garlean Empire was dealt with off screen despite being such a threat for years. To the writing of our antagonist which literally was lacking depth. Then the final point being the whole cause of everything essentially pulled out of nowhere and never eluded to in basically a decade? Then we just solve it instantly without any consequence of any action or sacrifice merely just a monetary item that just gets remedy at the flick of a wrist.

Endwalker was the downturn. I do feel for the writing team as having to produce a new enemy to fill the role of Ascians and Zodiark is going to be hard as they have to fill the gap left by immortals that could literally think in creation at the peak of the civilization.

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This. It really makes you wonder if Shadowbringers was so good by accident. Endwalker was terrible in so many ways. What they did with Zodiark, adding the god forsaken Loporrits to ruin the tone of the whole expansion, flimsy villains pulled out of nowhere, the apocalypse only happening locally in a couple of the new zones, the whole last zone with back to back """""sacrifices""""" that are undone within minutes, last dungeon being another hallucination dungeon ala Shadowbringers... To me Endwalker was already terrible, though Dawntrail was even worse somehow. With Endwalker it felt like they were at least trying a little, with Dawntrail it felt like they were just phoning it all in, so many inconsistencies and plot holes and just asinine writing that it really feels like the writers and the people in charge really couldn't be bothered with the whole thing.