They should put actual MMO players on the development team.

No thank you -- That's the quickest way to sink an MMO. Developers may not be all encompassing on things but players are even less so -- Developers look at it objectively and from a business standpoint, players look at it from "I WANT DIS!" standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Lol, and you have a very biased opinion about anything posted on these forums.

I think you're wrong though, when I talk to people about ideas I have for the game they're usually like "Yeah, that's a really good idea." I also feel my self very agreeable with suggestions that other people make about the game. Since the suggestions are coming from people who have a great deal of experience playing, they usually make sense.

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Not knowing your ideas, I can't really comment, but even the simplest of ideas are often far more complex once critically analyzed. There are the obvious (what sort of assets the ideas require, technical feasibility, worth the amount of man-hours, etc), as well as questioning the core idea itself (what makes this compelling, does it fit the theme, is. it. fun.)

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Originally Posted by Mijin

If I wanted medical advice I'd ask the doctor, not the guy who makes the equipment he uses.

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You'd want the doctor, who has studied and trained to give medical advice. You wouldn't want the guy who plays trauma center all day. I really have no idea where you were going with that metaphor.

Not everyone on the team needs MMO experience. Why does the texture artists or character modelers need it? Programmers? Sound team?

When it comes to design, even then, you don't need to be a diehard fan of a genre to be able to make something good. You need to understand what makes that genre compelling, on top of basic design principles.

And to further elaborate on what Tupsi said right above me: I've learned a long time ago that, more often than not, people do not know what they -actually- want. They'll make demands or offer suggestions left and right, without ever actually declaring what the problem is that they are trying to fix in the first place. This is one of the biggest problems I've seen on these forums, including this thread.

Trend of Mijin created topics. Most pretty ignorant without research.

Yoshida has expressed constantly how much of a heavy MMO player he is and has played serveral MMO's, Camelot was just one of his primary ones.

Yoshida has also made his team play other MMO's to get the feeling of how a working MMO title works. He has had them play a bunch of WoW for starters.

Everything in 2.0 sounds legit and if you actually looked upon the resources of information also, you might agree. Like or hate the new direction of FFXIV, but thinking it will not be a polished product seems very unlikely, especially with how much money SE has put into the project in whole, both the current version and 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Wait? Isn't the whole forum doing what you want them to hire? Giving ideas and doing it for free? Actually we pay to give them ideas.

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I don't feel like most of the people on these forums have enough gamine experience to be qualified. Not to mention lots of peoples only purpose of forum going it to troll, so you've gotta throw that into the mix as well. On top of that I don't think there is much of a line of communication from the forums to them, the probably disregard 90% of what ever the community reps send, and who knows what they even pick and choose to send them. They probably especially disregard what is sent to them from non-JP community leaders.

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Originally Posted by Noir

This game failed not because they don't know. They do know. But this engine was made for single players rpg. Not a MMO. Rest assured that ARR will show you that they know how to make a MMO. Look at FF 11

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The only reason the game failed, and continues to fail is not that alone...

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Originally Posted by Sav

I don't think that analogy works.

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It does I'll explain why in a second.

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Originally Posted by Alderton

even the simplest of ideas are often far more complex once critically analyzed. There are the obvious (what sort of assets the ideas require, technical feasibility, worth the amount of man-hours, etc), as well as questioning the core idea itself (what makes this compelling, does it fit the theme, is. it. fun.)

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I never said that the hired gamer's would make the ideas, they would just help to filter and improve them. It's obvious that some of the ideas the people outside of the field would come up with would be too exorbitant to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Alderton

You'd want the doctor, who has studied and trained to give medical advice. You wouldn't want the guy who plays trauma center all day.

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You're missing the point that I'm calling them professional gamer's, There are people out there that have spent more time on MMORPGs hour for hour than a doctor goes to school... I think that qualifies them more than anyone else to know what should be expected of a game.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Trend of Mijin created topics. Most pretty ignorant without research.

Yoshida has expressed constantly how much of a heavy MMO player he is and has played serveral MMO's, Camelot was just one of his primary ones.

Yoshida has also made his team play other MMO's to get the feeling of how a working MMO title works. He has had them play a bunch of WoW for starters.

Everything in 2.0 sounds legit and if you actually looked upon the resources of information also, you might agree. Like or hate the new direction of FFXIV, but thinking it will not be a polished product seems very unlikely, especially with how much money SE has put into the project in whole, both the current version and 2.0.

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Like the trend of who ever you ares comments, mostly pretty inaccurate and inflammatory.

Well I don't remember ever seeing Yoshida mention anything but DAoC and DIII, but even if it is true if we only have one educated mans opinion running the whole show things could just start to go according to his taste.

I acknowledged the fact that the team was forced to play MMOs for a little bit, but that still doesn't compare to the knowledge of those that who have been playing MMOs since before you were probably even born.

I never said 2.0 didn't sound decent, I even mentioned iirc in OP that I thought it was going to save the game, but I guess you only read the topic.

Also I'm glad you liked reading my posts, well reading the title anyway. Thanks for commenting.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

You're missing the point that I'm calling them professional gamer's, There are people out there that have spent more time on MMORPGs hour for hour than a doctor goes to school... I think that qualifies them more than anyone else to know what should be expected of a game.

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Here is the thing... There is a VAST difference between professional gamer and professional game-maker.
A game-maker needs to know how people FEEL about a game, how to manipulate emotions and sensations to bring out enjoyment, it needs to know people, not games per se. A professional gamer might know all there is about this game, might know it's mechanics by head, but he won't know how to make the person sitting beside him feel better about what he's playing.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Lol, and you have a very biased opinion about anything posted on these forums.

I think you're wrong though, when I talk to people about ideas I have for the game they're usually like "Yeah, that's a really good idea." I also feel my self very agreeable with suggestions that other people make about the game. Since the suggestions are coming from people who have a great deal of experience playing, they usually make sense.

If I wanted medical advice I'd ask the doctor, not the guy who makes the equipment he uses.

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Wdf are you talking about? When it's a few hundred thousand people saying they like your ideas then maybe you're on to something...

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Originally Posted by Skies

Here is the thing... There is a VAST difference between professional gamer and professional game-maker.
A game-maker needs to know how people FEEL about a game, how to manipulate emotions and sensations to bring out enjoyment, it needs to know people, not games per se. A professional gamer might know all there is about this game, might know it's mechanics by head, but he won't know how to make the person sitting beside him feel better about what he's playing.

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Right, and the point you and everyone else is missing is that I said to add players as a part of the team for correspondence. All of you people who are getting irate are acting like I suggested to fire the whole staff and replace them with no knowledge of how to make a game.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

You're missing the point that I'm calling them professional gamer's, There are people out there that have spent more time on MMORPGs hour for hour than a doctor goes to school... I think that qualifies them more than anyone else to know what should be expected of a game.

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The thing is, going through the motions and experiencing something is radically different than critically analyzing things. I've watched a ton of movies and TV shows, but that alone wouldn't give me a better idea of how to improve a show. Sure, I can give my opinions on what i didn't like, but that should be where it ends. The devs should look at it and say, "Our fans hate how often we talk about ponies. Why is that? What can we do to improve their experience."

That there is part of the reason we have these forums! And again, I think most players go about voicing their concerns incorrectly.

One of the hardest tools to master as a developer is how to take feedback from the fans and analyze that feedback to get to the nuggety-center goodness of the issue. Someone who plays games a lot isn't going to provide that.

Everything else aside, they have a QA team to sweep things and give initial feedback.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

Wdf are you talking about? When it's a few hundred thousand people saying they like your ideas then maybe you're on to something...

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Lmfao, a few hundred thousand? Not that many people even play FFXIV, let alone regularly visit these forums. I think you're over exaggerating just a bit there... maybe a few hundred.

If you want 2.0 to turn into another SWTOR,sure,put players on the dev team