Both Extremes cleared w no healer

The only thing I disagree with is WHM becoming a DOT mage. Give my own version of Flare & Despair. I wanna use a earth and wind spell for big damage.

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Originally Posted by Sivante

Snip.

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You have DPS and healers with both mitigative and DPS who have strong healing options, Just not to the degree of tanks.

I mean Shield healers main purpose is to bring massive party mitigation overall, you also got raid wide and target mitigative barriers/mits on healers, although lets be fair tanks do have some insanely strong cooldowns, but Tanks maxium "healing" also is way below anything a healer can do, I think honestly tank healing outside warrior is fine. (PLD's big contribution in healing in these fights is at a massive damage loss)

As for DPS they will always be needed even if tanks do 70% of what a DPS does due to enrage, this may not apply to extreme but you are already hindering your own progress by running less damage by making the fight last longer.

Personally i wasn't "bored" in ext1 as a healer, i felt like I had so much spot healing and was valuable, I think ext1 in particular did a good job of making the healer feel really valued, but at the same time I'm not surprised they were able to clear it without a healer if you bring 2 paladins 2 warriors, and multiple DPS who has healing abilities, which bringing that comp was still a struggle which pushed people to a limit.

I'm not against reworking tanks value's personally I'd actually like tanks to lean more into supportive abilities while having less survivability, because I think tanks survivability is way too high as of current, while it would be more fun to have more party/group responsibilities, perhaps I'm alone in this though. As for tank (and healer dps) I think tanks and healers should hit around 70% of a DPS, although for Healers this would be full uptime and ideally with more complicated rotations, I think both roles should hit "hard" for overworld content alone, but it would feel odd to play a frontline role like tank and do like 20% of the damage of a dps lol.

I can fully understand people wanting tank adjustments/nerfs, I think theirs some valid points into making tanks more balanced, I personally think it's always been their self survivability which is the issue rather then damage or raid wide contribution.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I can fully understand people wanting tank adjustments/nerfs, I think theirs some valid points into making tanks more balanced, I personally think it's always been their self survivability which is the issue rather then damage or raid wide contribution.

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I largely agree. I'm not sure what kind of change is necessary if I'm honest as it all feels like a herculean undertaking, but a change is necessary and to that we can find accord.

Healers are like insurance.

- You have them because you don't know if you ever need them.

- If you never have an accidents (aka party does extremely well), you feel like insurance is an unnecessary waste of money.

- But doesn't change the fact society needs insurance.

If contents is tuned to be punishing on healers even when the party is perfect, than the party who make mistake will never even have a chance.

That's why DPS don't have problem because more DPS = more endorphin = bigger ego, and people like that.

No one really want to pay all that much money into insurance ... until they have an accident and wished they have insurance.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Healers are like insurance.

- You have them because you don't know if you ever need them.

- If you never have an accidents (aka party does extremely well), you feel like insurance is an unnecessary waste of money.

- But doesn't change the fact society needs insurance.

If contents is tuned to be punishing on healers even when the party is perfect, than the party who make mistake will never even have a chance.

That's why DPS don't have problem because more DPS = more endorphin = bigger ego, and people like that.

No one really want to pay all that much money into insurance ... until they have an accident and wished they have insurance.

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That's just 'Healers adjust' with extra steps. Not that you're wrong, just couldn't help but say it.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Healers are like insurance.

- You have them because you don't know if you ever need them.

- If you never have an accidents (aka party does extremely well), you feel like insurance is an unnecessary waste of money.

- But doesn't change the fact society needs insurance.

If contents is tuned to be punishing on healers even when the party is perfect, than the party who make mistake will never even have a chance.

That's why DPS don't have problem because more DPS = more endorphin = bigger ego, and people like that.

No one really want to pay all that much money into insurance ... until they have an accident and wished they have insurance.

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And yet every other trinity based MMO manages to make healers a required part of the team, regardless of the skill level of the group. Curious.

These are fun challenges but no way in hell would I like the fights to go like that as a standard. That looked painful to do.

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Originally Posted by Sivante

I largely agree. I'm not sure what kind of change is necessary if I'm honest as it all feels like a herculean undertaking, but a change is necessary and to that we can find accord.

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They'd need to at least undo the mitigation upgrades from Endwalker and Dawntrail. Shadowbringers also added Nascent Flash, which was arguably a mistake when Shake it Off already existed.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

And yet every other trinity based MMO manages to make healers a required part of the team, regardless of the skill level of the group. Curious.

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Because other games doesn't set up the trinity this way?

- Other games don't set up so healer is 70% of the time a Green DPS

- Other games don't give party an absurd amount of healing.

For good or bad, it is what it is. This isn't really a trinity game where you have tank/heal/DPS. The real trinity is the color: red DPS, blue DPS, green DPS.

Hey if you ask me if I prefer Wow Raiding or FF14 raiding, I say WoW raiding 100% of time, and I come from there as a healer.

But I don't really expect the underline design in FF14 to change, at all.

> Opens "Healerless" video.

> Sees Double WAR, Double PLD (w/ Clemency usage), and DNC (the red healer)

Cool for them, but not really impressive to me. If they dont abuse the shit out of clemency or nascent, then that would be really cool. At least they didnt use vercure mage.