Returning Summoner question

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Originally Posted by vetch

Nobody tell her about FF10. Or 12. Or 13.

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Ah, yes, nothing more traditional than good ol' FF12 summons or fans favorite ff13 summoning. Also even if both have the summons stays for a bit they're both temporary so in function not that different from demi-bahumut and demi-phoenix. You have more of a case with ff10 but then again if you just wanna be smug, what are you doing? FF11 is right here.

Point is, out of 16 main entries FF, 9 have summons that show up only to do one attack, 2 don't have summons, 2 have summons temporarily out on the field, 2 have persistent summons that function as a pet and 1 is FF16.

I'm not gonna argue with how the gameplay feels, I can understand people not liking it. But honestly I think the current summoner feels thematically way closer to what summoning has been in FF history rather than coughing on a monster to give it the flu then give it an infection while a little deformed aberration sometimes gives a hit in between two pleas to be put out of it's misery. The previous summoner felt more like the mad scientist job.

Oh and also it's "him"

I mean, the lack of controllable summons before PS2 was mostly due to technical limitations. And I'd say FF10, while not my favorite, was pretty iconic and defining as far as Summoners in the series go. There's a reason the subsequent mainline games never went back to summons being just big spells.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I mean, the lack of controllable summons before PS2 was mostly due to technical limitations. And I'd say FF10, while not my favorite, was pretty iconic and defining as far as Summoners in the series go. There's a reason the subsequent mainline games never went back to summons being just big spells.

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This. It was the most logical route to take for summoners to have their own identity apart from being glorified black/white magic spell casters.

And also, if you do want to have them be just big spells... Actually make them feel like big expensive nuke spells. Not something you spam every 8 seconds ad nauseam until it feels like you aren't actually doing much anything. Even WHM Holy spam feels more powerful.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

And also, if you do want to have them be just big spells... Actually make them feel like big expensive nuke spells. Not something you spam every 8 seconds ad nauseam until it feels like you aren't actually doing much anything. Even WHM Holy spam feels more powerful.

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Indeed. Aside from removing the pet mechanics, making it instant cast spells lost the impact each summon have.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

Ah, yes, nothing more traditional than good ol' FF12 summons or fans favorite ff13 summoning. Also even if both have the summons stays for a bit they're both temporary so in function not that different from demi-bahumut and demi-phoenix. You have more of a case with ff10 but then again if you just wanna be smug, what are you doing? FF11 is right here.

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Summon Ally is as 'traditional', in the strict sense, as Summon Cutscene is -- insofar as it's a facet of the series that's been present for several iterations. That's really all you need to be a 'tradition'.

This does get in the way of invoking the word 'tradition' as a talisman.

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Point is, out of 16 main entries FF, 9 have summons that show up only to do one attack, 2 don't have summons, 2 have summons temporarily out on the field, 2 have persistent summons that function as a pet and 1 is FF16.

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8 cutscene summoners, 2 non-summoners, 5 ally summoners, and then FF16. Counting both old and new versions of FF7, and not counting FF14 since it's the subject of argument (and also it uses both types of summons, lmao).

Also I don't really consider the distinction between temporary and permanent allies to be relevant here, since there are equally large distinctions in the cutscene varieties that you're ignoring to make your argument.

Like, FF6's 'only once per battle from an item you choose and equip beforehand' magicite system has as much or more conceptual distance from FF14's spam rotation, as temporary allies do from permanent ones.

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I'm not gonna argue with how the gameplay feels, I can understand people not liking it. But honestly I think the current summoner feels thematically way closer to what summoning has been in FF history rather than coughing on a monster to give it the flu then give it an infection while a little deformed aberration sometimes gives a hit in between two pleas to be put out of it's misery. The previous summoner felt more like the mad scientist job.

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Couldn't disagree more. You spend most of your time rapid-casting weak Magic Missiles, and when you do get to summon, everything's instant so you don't get the visceral experience of a charge-and-release cast, plus your main 3 still look like deformed digimon for the whole leveling experience and whenever you get synced down.

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Originally Posted by vetch

You spend most of your time rapid-casting weak Magic Missiles, and when you do get to summon, everything's instant so you don't get the visceral experience of a charge-and-release cast, plus your main 3 still look like deformed digimon for the whole leveling experience and whenever you get synced down.

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Them looking deformed is more of an issue with old summoner than new summoner if we're being honest, and they're not going to change when you obtain the full forms. As for the weak magic missiles, yeah, that's an issue. And that could be fixed by giving each elemental phase more unique actions with specific effects instead of a (barely for the most part) recolored ruin. As for the act of summoning needing a "charge and release", if anything the demis should get a cast time, since they're the culmination of the rotation (and you get the most instant stuff from them). Because the elemental summons are there as fodder to get your rotation going, and as you said prior to level 90 they're nothing to write home about, it wouldn't make thematic sense to make such a big deal out of them.

I also think Solar Bahamut needs to have buildup, like a gauge of umbral aether that's required to shift Bahamut from astral to umbreal. THAT would create a "charge and release".

And aetherflow being linked to Energy Drain is just weird, when it has a different effect for Scholar. Would make more sense and honestly feel less vestigial to get it directly from trances. Especially when the low-level carbuncle-themed equivalent to bahamut trance does almost nothing. And give SMN the old energy drain back (along with shadowflare if you're not going to go back to the other DoTs).