Redo FFXIV: Remove the dance, introduce RNG encounters

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Personally, I think the dance is the best thing that FFXIV's combat has going for it right now, and thus removing it without also doing some manner of rework to the combat system would only make the game worse. Because the cadence and progression of mechanics is the fight, in the same way that the precise steps you take in Dance Dance Revolution are the song. And that's what I enjoy about FFXIV's combat.

Beyond that, changing the order of mechanics doesn't make it any more challenging, it just means the flow would be random. You'd lose the rhythm of the fight, and it would be replaced with randomness. I suppose that might impact some players who depend on memorizing the order of mechanics, but I just see the tells and react to them, so it wouldn't make them any harder for players like me.

I wouldn't be opposed to adjusting the game's combat systems, but changing the dance without actually adding new gameplay elements sounds like a losing way to go about it.

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The rhythm is literally the only thing left in this RPG.

Jobs don't really work with each other, healing is an afterthought, aggro management is gone, boss positioning is done for you, MP doesn't need managing at all etc etc.

Please, put anything (no, really) back into the game, SE. Outside of a few current fights the game is just shallow.

Why should Square Enix try this when they’re going to make the same amount of money regardless? Still $13/month and you’re still going to sub. There’s no incentive unless it brings in more money.

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Originally Posted by BlazingErial

Man, it's easy to tell when Titanmen's current alt gets banned because the bait threads don't even try to actually be good anymore.

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So true. Everyone who has a suggestion or idea about FFXIV is TitanMen. Reminder: we’re still the best MMO and still better than WoW. We’re all fine with the game as-is, everyone’s happy, there’s over a million people playing. And if you’re not happy, then unsub and play other games. Although I’ve been playing nonstop for 12 years for 16 hours a day and still haven’t run out of content, maybe it’s a you problem? But let’s be clear here, TitanMen and his cronies keep trying to slander this game. FFXIV is THE best MMO, period, end of story. Oh, how was Shadowlands? Bobby Kotick? Breast milk in the fridge? Yeah, didn’t think so bud. Yoshida saved the company with ARR and he’ll do it again. I cried 50 times during Endwalker…yeah, it’s just that good. So don’t tell ME that FFXIV isn’t good enough. I’ll have you know that I spent at least $1,720 on fantas alone this year. MY money talks.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Amon (should be Amen, but I'll forgive them since they're eurocentric).

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What? Why?

As for your idea, if I understand it correctly the boss would still do all the same attack patterns but the order it cycles through them would be random? I guess that could be mildly interesting for players who have memorized every boss encounter's attack order, but I think most players probably don't so it wouldn't make any difference to them.

Also, it would have to be compatible with Duty Support and Trusts. I don't see any obvious problem here, but then I'm not a programmer and have no idea how they've constructed that system so I can't say.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I don't know why people on these forum are so against the idea of fun. Doing the exact same fight is just boring. Having said that, fights have some degree of randomness already (albeit very little), yet nobody cares. It's just a fun thing if you raid and you get "(un)lucky" and everyone laughs about it.

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People intentionally wiped beast first in p8s because it wasn't fun.



I like fun, but the randomness of mechanics changing the flow of a fight to be worse ain't it.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

If cbu3 doesn't want harder content then how about removing the scripted fights?
The solution is simple, remove the script and let boss encounters do mechanics randomly.

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They can't do that because of a lot of reasons, some of them self-inflicted. A few off the top of my head are:

1. They can't do it because the game is literally just a Turn Based MMO. Think Runescape, but faster. Everything snapshots.
They'd have to slow down the execution of mechanics in order for the player to have enough time to run out of the snapshot, and that would make the raids easier, not harder.

2. The jobs themselves are designed for full uptime, and most of the jobs won't really work for random downtime phases, And SE designed the jobs this way

It's not like WoW where most jobs are actually built to have extra room for downtime. In FF14, you will generate 50 gauge/ stack charge/ just in time for your spender to go off cooldown as long as you press your 1-2-3s. And the scripted fights in FF14 accomodate for that job design. Kinda like this:

0:00 On pull you have 30 seconds to burst. This is where you pop your buffs and burst. The boss will do raid wides into tankbuster.
0:25 The boss starts casting the mechanic
0:30 -1:50 Raid Mechanic A
2:00 Pop all raid cooldowns. The boss will do raid wides into tankbuster.
2:25 The boss starts casting a mechanic
2:30 3:50 Raid Mechanic B
4:00 Pop all raid cooldowns. Boss will do raidwides into tankbuster.
repeat for 6 more minutes.
10:00 Soft enrage. Either mechanic or boss spamming raidwides. Pop all cooldowns and enrage.

Whether or not the fight design is a response to job design or vice-versa, I have no idea.

3. The target audience for the game won't like it, and that's the truth. Game's not designed for people who are searching for actual fights, it's designed for people who just want to memorize the choreography and have the same consistent experience every pull, either just so they don't have to feel bad for being bad at the game, or for getting high parses. They don't want inconsistencies in the encounter, they don't want hurdles, they want clean, well designed, linear experiences. That's just it.

So... you don't really want to remove the dance, you just want to randomize it?

Or in other words... sometimes it's more fun to first bring your knees in tight, and then put your hands on your hips?

Interesting... ;)

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Originally Posted by Payotz

stuff

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They already did what I'm suggesting in Seat of Sacrifice (Extreme). Definitely keeps everyone's brains engaged and debating what to prepare for next (even if it's something easy). The fact that we know that Shinryu will start with tidal wave is boring; that would be more surprising is that we don't know exactly when he'll use it.

As for designing the dance around job's cooldowns; so what? It's easy content; boohoo, a tank couldn't predictably predict the next tank buster and took some significant damage for once or someone missed their 2 minute burst phase, bit whoop. Might as well be playing a disney game.

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Originally Posted by Tahbitha

So... you don't really want to remove the dance, you just want to randomize it?

Or in other words... sometimes it's more fun to first bring your knees in tight, and then put your hands on your hips?

Interesting... ;)

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Hahaha!

That could be pretty sick form some bosses like Imagine random tankbuster here and there and Heal check coming out of nowhere that would be sick

iirc...
The Extreme fights used to be mostly RNG back in 1.x with a few HP % scripted moves before Yoshi-P took over.
It was pretty brutal. e.g. Ifrit could chain dashes back to back

One thing for fully RNG fights is that for them to remain "beatable" by most people, the variety of moves per fight has to be reduced.
After a few times at it, the fight gets boring too because of a lack of variety.

There is no win-win formula at all.

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Originally Posted by SophiaDL

The casuals right now sweating imagining your idea and having to actually not be afk all the time in roulettes :

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Randomizing mechanics wouldn't change anything if they're already AFKing through the fights. They could still AFK because ignoring mechanics has been proven non-fatal.

I'm fine with randomizing as long as mechanics were already introduced to the player through bosses that were previously defeated either in MSQ or earlier parts of the same duty. If new mechanics get introduced, then have the mechanics appear in a specific order at the start of the encounter than randomize them after that. Ultimately there is still going to be a dance involved but it's just the order of the steps changing instead of the steps being completely different.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I don't know why people on these forum are so against the idea of fun. Doing the exact same fight is just boring. Having said that, fights have some degree of randomness already (albeit very little), yet nobody cares. It's just a fun thing if you raid and you get "(un)lucky" and everyone laughs about it.

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What is fun to you may not be fun to another player.

As for getting an unlucky combination, like you said it's something to laugh about and try again. Unfortunately, too many players present any type of failure as meaning a player is bad and so players hate getting placed into situations where there's a strong chance of failure. It's rather ironic considering that the players who fail the most are the highly skilled players tackling the most difficult content. They don't let failure hold them back. Those who leave a party after a single wipe do.