I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

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Now, only for indirect reasons, and it's generally a would-be too-early Higan or a useless Tenka that's being "sacrificed" by Hagakure in order to keep one's burst loop synced to raid buffs.


That said, when it was a DPS increase to do so (in Stormblood), you would. Midare didn't offer as much damage over SAM's appgcd at the time as would 2.4 Shinten casts. Simple as that.

And that was, despite the clunkiness of Tsubame-Gaeshi per 60s relative to Hagakure per 40s as your rotational burst loop, part of why many preferred Shadowbringers SAM over Stormblood SAM: having an infrequent extra Iaijutsu felt more "Samurai" to most than... more Shinten spam, even if the extra mobility and APM Hagakure offered at the time was well liked (and that mechanic allowed one up to 3 GCDs of flex, instead of 0 GCDs, still giving reason to optimize one's loop without making it absurdly punishing to hit a ping spike at the wrong moment).


Now remove the ability to buff Iaijutsu casts by 50%, replacing it with Shinten spam, and it gets obvious why many wouldn't be a fan of that idea.)

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by kayll

EW spoiled the melee players, If you don't roll out the red carpet for them they'll make a lot of noise.
I suggest you make a new Kaiten thread to make amends and they may just deign to forgive you for your sleight against them.

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You do realize the ones wanting Kaiten back are also usually the ones pushing for more "Melee"-like gameplay, such as tighter boss hitboxes, harder uptime management, conal AoEs that thereby require movement into and out of mob packs, etc., right?

While a buff to gameplay, it's objectively more effort for no increase in reward.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

[Bunch of nonsense, justifying change that commnuity pretty much unanimously disagrees with, and devs have yet to respond to us, after they specifically asked for feedback]

(It's funny, I still haven't leveled SAM...but I still have the grayed out version on my bar for posterity. :D)

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Wow, why does this not surprise me.

Here, some research for you, so you can get yourself informed:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Kaiten-removal
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ot_be_removed/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIHj-1_Yn1U
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ing_kaiten_to/

Here's something so you won't say I'm nitpicking stuff:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ten_that_much/

Here's my thread, you can read through it to find out that Kaiten removal barely, if even, affected APM in burst (nullifying their action bloat excuse), they have not yet added anything to replace it (nullifying their future proofing excuse) and you can get rid of 4 much lower priority buttons if you want to combat this fictional button bloat:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...6.1-SAM-rework

Quote from my thread, regarding volume of JP forum feedback:

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Back in july 2022 (6 months after rework) I counted pages on JP's SAM megathread (they use chaotic megathreads for some reason). At the time, thread had 325 pages worth of discussion. Meanwhile, from SAM's release in SB (June 2017) to 6.1, there was just 170 pages. That means 170 pages in 4.5 years vs 155 pages in just half a year after 6.1 release. I think it's safe to say that even JP community wasn't excited about rework.

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These are just random examples, I recommend you looking around the internet to get better idea of the situation. I'm looking forward to your reply where you'll actually give me link to those "guide makers" and "theory crafters" who are fine with it, even though I'm very skeptical if job design should be directed by someone who's hobby is min-maxing everything, because that often means minimizing fun in the process.

Also, what the hell are you talking about with the crit stuff? Kaiten added 50% potency to next weapon skill for 20 Kenki, that's all, it didn't make it guaranteed crit. The ruined synergy was in 6.1 patch, because they implemented 4 guaranteed crits for SAM in that same patch (there was 20+ changes in that patch btw), before they even made the compensation for it in 6.2, which is yet another issue caused by 6.1 SAM rework.

I highly recommend you reading my thread, I've read through many of your essays, do me a favour and read mine.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

[Bunch of nonsense to a person correctly identifying the several issues going on and the view of the community as a whole and that the community as a whole is not in unanimous agreement.]

[Wants Kaiten back]

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Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

I didn't say no one anywhere else than here was complaining about Kaiten. I said the view is not universal.

Universal means 100% agreement with no disagreement. The only thing, literally the only thing, I'm harping on here is the insistence that it is universal.

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If you're going to offer a rebuttal - and insult a person - at least get their argument right, otherwise you're rebutting a straw man, not an argument. And ad hominem isn't relevant. Me not playing SAM has no relevance to my ability to read internet forums and see a non-unanimous position isn't unanimous.

EDIT: Hell, even in the first thread you linked on Reddit, the OP lists several complaints that I pointed out, an several of the responses are LITERALLY making the arguments I presented - that people miss the animation, that some people don't mind the removal they just wanted something to replace it, etc.

At least read your own sources that disprove you and support my position.

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I get it's easy to be super emotional about Kaiten. That doesn't mean you can or should insult or attack people, nor that you should ignore facts and reality.

The MAJORITY seem to want Kaiten back - did I say otherwise?

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

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EW spoiled the melee players, If you don't roll out the red carpet for them they'll make a lot of noise.
I suggest you make a new Kaiten thread to make amends and they may just deign to forgive you for your sleight against them.

Hm, interesting reads about Kaiten... With that being said, where you all think that SAM will grow towards in DT?

Even without Kaiten, or thinking about it without the idea of what it used to do (since I didn't experience it), SAM's flow feels quite complete. Is there anything to be added without causing actual bloat?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

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Genuinely curious, could you quote some of these counters? Or are you saying counters in support of it being a bad idea it was removed? Almost every single discussion regarding kaiten I've seen has been against it's removal, or at least pointing out how its removal does nothing of substance. The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

I didn't say no one anywhere else than here was complaining about Kaiten. I said the view is not universal.

Universal means 100% agreement with no disagreement. The only thing, literally the only thing, I'm harping on here is the insistence that it is universal.

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If you're going to offer a rebuttal - and insult a person - at least get their argument right, otherwise you're rebutting a straw man, not an argument. And ad hominem isn't relevant. Me not playing SAM has no relevance to my ability to read internet forums and see a non-unanimous position isn't unanimous.

EDIT: Hell, even in the first thread you linked on Reddit, the OP lists several complaints that I pointed out, an several of the responses are LITERALLY making the arguments I presented - that people miss the animation, that some people don't mind the removal they just wanted something to replace it, etc.

At least read your own sources that disprove you and support my position.

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I get it's easy to be super emotional about Kaiten. That doesn't mean you can or should insult or attack people, nor that you should ignore facts and reality.

The MAJORITY seem to want Kaiten back - did I say otherwise?

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

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Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it". Didn't we already clarified in the healer thread that it is given that no community ever 100% agrees with anything?

But who am I kidding, you don't have any arguments, you don't even have SAM leveled after all, what's the point of your input in this matter?

And most importantly, where are the links to your theory crafters' opinion you spoke of? I was hoping to get some good chuckle from reading that. Could you at least once give source to have some credibility? You still didn't give me that data about that 1-2M/2-4M players from a month ago, after I went through all the trouble giving all the links and sources to you.

So please, link me those "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you speak of.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Hm, interesting reads about Kaiten... With that being said, where you all think that SAM will grow towards in DT?

Even without Kaiten, or thinking about it without the idea of what it used to do (since I didn't experience it), SAM's flow feels quite complete. Is there anything to be added without causing actual bloat?

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I don't have big hopes, after all both 2 additions of active skills in EW were bloat (Shoha 2 and Ogi). It will be probably some QoL. EW gave us 2nd Meikyo stack, which made freestyle SAM legitimate playstyle, so my fear is that next in the line of QoL changes are instacasted Iaijutsu, and I'm getting disgusted just thinking about that. After that, fancy skill at capstone, animation upgrade and another active skill, hopefully something that has low CD and uses Kenki, so the Shinten spam stops.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

which made freestyle SAM legitimate playstyle, so my fear is that next in the line of QoL changes are instacasted Iaijutsu, and I'm getting disgusted just thinking about that. After that, fancy skill at capstone, animation upgrade and another active skill, hopefully something that has low CD and uses Kenki, so the Shinten spam stops.

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Oh? What is 'freestyle' play? I didn't see this in any of the lv90 guides, but perhaps is just nomenclature.

Yes, I know it's sad, and I Main SAM. You know, at some point you have to mourn and move on, that's happiness!

Kaiten's absence won't stop me thinking I'm Kenshin.
Especially with :

Hissatsu: Seinei
Ogi Namikiri -> Kaeshi: Namikiri
Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi: Setsugekka
And ofc Meditate

Of course, if you're too young, you won't know the reference and at worst, you'll have the remake on the way.
So you can carry on crying over Kaiten like when you promise a kid chocolate and then take it back.

On that note, I'm going back, it's going to be a while in the official forum complaints office.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Oh? What is 'freestyle' play? I didn't see this in any of the lv90 guides, but perhaps is just nomenclature.

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We used to have only single stack of Tsubame and Meikyo, which made it harder to align everyrthing, and also because you got buffs only from 2nd parts of Kasha/Gekko combos, simply said, rotation used to be much more strict in the past. Nowadays, you just need to remember few things to do and their priority and you can just wing it/freestyle it. This might be shocking, but SAM was often considered hard, some people went as far as comparing it to BLM. Which is huge contrast to today's "anything goes" SAM.

Freestyle samurai seems to originate from one singular person, then it got memed on and the legend of freestyle samurai started. It's very hyperbolical example of someone who was really just mashing his button as he wanted, but difficulty of playing SAM has definitely lowered significantly since that time, so we are getting closer and closer to the legendary freestyle samurai. Long story short, my comment was just a hyperbole.