Would a Reraise ability break the game?

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Yeah but this is exactly the scenario that would have to be avoided. Imagine cheesing big mechanics like this.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There isn't much cheese to be had. For the game's more difficult fights, if a healer has to LB3 the group wont beat the enrage window. For all other fights, no one cares.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

You underestimate folks. Remember that healer LB3 doesn't give weakness, and most groups can generally clear without using DPS LB3 outside of week 1 or 2. This could potentially affect older ultimates as well where damage doesn't matter any more only that people do mechanics correctly.

off the top of my head, a good example of a mechanic that would be super easily cheesed was Lions in E12S, people already cheesed it with Heal LB 3 because parties messed it up all the time, the issue was the healer had to get lucky and live but a reraise would basically make it a standard strat.

And dmg checks were definitely met despite this.

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Yes, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

On the other hand healer LB3s and Tank LB3 have been used to cheese a lot of things already, so this isnt like mind blowingly broken but it does make it more accessible. Just as an example this whole tier tanks have been cheesing Cachexia 2

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The difference I see, at least in more recent raids, is if you tank LB a mechanic the whole party can still get a major Damage Down if the mechanic isn't handled correctly anyway. With a Reraise+wipe+LB3 everyone loses gauge and a few GCDs but otherwise comes back up with no Weakness (except the Reraised healer) and no Damage Down (except the surviving tank), which could tip Reraise into OP territory.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

You underestimate folks. Remember that healer LB3 doesn't give weakness, and most groups can generally clear without using DPS LB3 outside of week 1 or 2. This could potentially affect older ultimates as well where damage doesn't matter any more only that people do mechanics correctly.

off the top of my head, a good example of a mechanic that would be super easily cheesed was Lions in E12S, people already cheesed it with Heal LB 3 because parties messed it up all the time, the issue was the healer had to get lucky and live but a reraise would basically make it a standard strat.

And dmg checks were definitely met despite this.

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You mean, I underestimate ilv bloat. In which case, no. I am not. I can use two fights I am currently participating in as examples of each scenario here: Sophia Unreal (Healer LB3 = Doom), and Rubicante EX (DPS LB3 not needed). For the first fight, while not mechanically very difficult, if players are messing up so much that a healer has to use LB3, chances are you're not going to beat enrage. Some groups might have managed, but none of mine have so this is purely anecdotal. My doubts remain high though.

Rubicante EX is an example where his toughest mechanic: Sweeping Immolation with spread AoEs, can be totally cheesed with the use of healer LB3. The group can quite literally send one healer to a safe zone, and everyone else can just eat it and die. So long as the healer lives, the fight carries on. And because the Archfiend does not have a tight window, this strat will work for decently skilled groups who struggle with this mechanic.

So what's the point? Well. For starters Sophia Unreal can't be ilv cheesed, and a healer having Reraise as I have described it won't help a group of insufficient skill. As for Rubicante, the ilv bloat is redundant because no amount of it will save the group if they can't do Sweeping Immolation correctly. Even with Reraise as I have described it, the group still has to build the gauge for LB3, and both healers will still need to do the mechanics leading up to Sweeping Immolation, or they will lose their Reraise buff.

What this all means is that Healer LB3 cheese is already happening, and a healer Reraise buff as I have described it won't change anything. It will always be better and preferable for groups to stay on their feet so healer LB3 isn't needed at all, and having DPS LB3 available will only make the fight easier to clear, regardless if it is needed or not. I am not quite sure that DPS LB3 is needed for any of the game's harder fights in its history. From my experience it has not been. However, having it available definitely helps pick up some slack if groups are not as skilled, or have made too many mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Exactly, the game is waaaaaaay too forgiving and easy to warrant the need of a re-raise. If the game was designed more inconvenient whereas death was a ton a lot more punishing such as lack of retries in a fight then yeah reraise would be a must-have.

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I agree as well. Needed? No. Useful? Yes.

Of course a Reraise ability would break the game...which is why BLU will get it.

Setting aside the potential for abuse or cheesing mechanics, I am just not sure that Reraise would really add much to the game or enhance a healer's versatility to the degree that it warrants a new skill on an already clogged hotbar. I guess it would feel neat to throw Reraise on someone you can tell is going to get wiped out in the next few seconds, but a lot of the time that's what Rescue already does. Sure, there are some mechanics where it would come in handy -- like Angry Meatball's Doom, or those bosses that target you with a beam and you have to stand behind something to break line of sight -- but those instances are few and far between. Also, if Reraise gets added as a new 91+ spell, you wouldn't be able to use it then anyhow.

What's worse, I'd hate to think that the devs might start designing mechanics that just outright unavoidably KILL a player -- simply because they know you have Reraise, and that's the intended solution. I don't think that would be fun.

I feel WHM will get the spell “Arise” as their level 100 skill. It’s a raise that isn’t subject to the weakness effect. Maybe it will be a 10 second duration and if you don’t die then it will give you a massive heal instead.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I feel WHM will get the spell “Arise” as their level 100 skill. It’s a raise that isn’t subject to the weakness effect. Maybe it will be a 10 second duration and if you don’t die then it will give you a massive heal instead.

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You just gave me a wild idea... what if White Mage's version of Esuna was supercharged, and could cleanse just about anything: including vuln stacks, weakness, brink of death, and even some other normally-uncleansable debuffs like certain "Doom" effects or persistent DoTs from getting knocked into arena boundaries? I realize that could be potentially really broken and overpowered, but it does require dedicating a GCD just to cleanse a single character, and I would expect other healers to get something equally powerful but distinct to them. It could be an interesting way to further establish job identity.

It could be a change to White Mage's base Esuna, but I think it might feel more rewarding if somewhere on your 91+ journey you unlock a "meta-trait" that activates it and it would apply to all content of any level retroactively. So now you show up in duties as an "Expert White Mage" with additional utility.

I suppose the downside would be that if your group performs perfectly, doesn't fail mechanics, doesn't die, etc., then White Mage doesn't get use out of its signature talent and as a result could be seen as weaker. But I feel like if you're in that situation then everything is going smoothly and you're probably just mashing the Stone/Glare button anyway so it doesn't matter much.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I feel WHM will get the spell “Arise” as their level 100 skill. It’s a raise that isn’t subject to the weakness effect. Maybe it will be a 10 second duration and if you don’t die then it will give you a massive heal instead.

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I suspect such a move would have a 5-6 minute cooldown. Meaning you can help keep the DPS from getting weakness so you can beat enrage...only once per fight.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You mean, I underestimate ilv bloat. In which case, no. I am not. I can use two fights I am currently participating in as examples of each scenario here: Sophia Unreal (Healer LB3 = Doom), and Rubicante EX (DPS LB3 not needed). For the first fight, while not mechanically very difficult, if players are messing up so much that a healer has to use LB3, chances are you're not going to beat enrage.

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What.

If people aren't beating Sophia enrage then they need to hit a training dummy for a while and learn their rotations, the DPS check for Sophia unreal is a joke in comparison to what it was back in HW

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

You just gave me a wild idea... what if White Mage's version of Esuna was supercharged, and could cleanse just about anything: including vuln stacks, weakness, brink of death, and even some other normally-uncleansable debuffs like certain "Doom" effects or persistent DoTs from getting knocked into arena boundaries? I realize that could be potentially really broken and overpowered, but it does require dedicating a GCD just to cleanse a single character, and I would expect other healers to get something equally powerful but distinct to them. It could be an interesting way to further establish job identity.

It could be a change to White Mage's base Esuna, but I think it might feel more rewarding if somewhere on your 91+ journey you unlock a "meta-trait" that activates it and it would apply to all content of any level retroactively. So now you show up in duties as an "Expert White Mage" with additional utility.

I suppose the downside would be that if your group performs perfectly, doesn't fail mechanics, doesn't die, etc., then White Mage doesn't get use out of its signature talent and as a result could be seen as weaker. But I feel like if you're in that situation then everything is going smoothly and you're probably just mashing the Stone/Glare button anyway so it doesn't matter much.

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I don’t think we will ever get something like that to be honest. Though, I can see a trait possibly making esuna aoe, but that’s all. They wouldn’t supercharge it like what you’re asking sadly.