What dps/utility buttons old or new would you add to your healer?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

For now, I'll just go over WHM. It's getting late for me and I'll be going to bed soon.

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Honestly, WHM is the one I wish you would have skipped. XD WHM I changed the least, and I know you really want all the healers to have new spells and/or interactions and/or complexities, so I already know you wouldn't like my WHM proposal. That's the one I could guess at offhand. :)

What I wanted to know is if you liked the SCH, SGE, or AST proposals, since those are actually more sweeping changes to the Jobs and I constructed them specifically to appeal to players like you.

Strictly speaking, I do have a solution for ONE of your concerns, though:

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The inclusion of a legitimate Water spell at lower levels which can upgrade later.

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Holy.

Make low level Water be an AOE centered on self that makes a water bubble float into the air and then burst.

Playing FF8 on Steam (picked it up and it's been literally 2 decades since I played it, and I don't think I ever finished it because PS2s would hardlock during the Lunatic Pandora sequence, so I'm giving it a new go!) and the Water spell there is a big water bubble that kind of forms on the enemy, floats up with them trapped inside, then pops. Water also worked this way in FF9, I believe. Water was always an uncommon spell for players in FF games, but was generally a mid-level spell. Instead of "Water 1, 2, and 3", there was just "Water" that was roughly comparable in strength to a 2.5 level Fire/Blizzard/Thunder spell (that is, somewhere between 2 and 3). Some iterations were AOE, but the animation always made it look like it should be. And given the way Holly works right now where it kind of floats up and bursts, Water doing that would make perfect sense.

Also: Did Qarn normal this afternoon in my Leveling Roulette and noticed in the very first pack "lol, forgot I don't have Holy yet... XD" when I was smacking the button and nothing was happening. (It was a fun goofy run with a DRK Tank that's normally a Healer and some chill DPS leveling folks). Getting AOEs for leveling is something that happens somewhat stupidly late for a lot of Jobs, and WHM is no exception, not getting Holy until 45. Getting an AOE Water spell at 15 when you do the Trial of Water quest. This would give you an AOE damage spell for every Dungeon in the game from Sastasha normal at 15 to level cap. The only group content you wouldn't have it for would be the first two Guildleves, the first of which enemies come in small packs and the second one is mainly a boss fight that occasionally summons 1-2 adds.

Regardless, Water upgrading to Holy would work pretty well as the Water spell's cast time and animation would be very similar to Holy's and it would be a pretty natural transition. Not to mention getting an AOE at level 15 after the Trial of Water quest just makes sense in every way possible - the quest, being the level to start running group content; the stars align themselves for it!

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and the "least" DPS you can do is also the "most" DPS you can do

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Not really. Letting Dia fall off would be a DPS loss, and I even explicitly said to make Glare x4 20-40 potency higher (5-10 per) vs Misery to make Glare the slightly higher damage option. Collectively, these two things already prevent your least damage being equal to your most. Though for the record, the worst player doing the same damage as the best player WOULD be a simplicity argument. You can't get more simple than that. GCD healing doesn't have to be perfectly damage neutral, but it shouldn't be a massive DPS loss. Per my way of thinking, Healers shouldn't be focusing on damage at all, and the damage should be a thing that kind of happens (basically the reverse of Eos/Kardia, which are healing that just kinda happens), but that doesn't make sense in FFXIV's combat model, so Misery/Glare/Dia works fine for that instead.

Note that the other Healer propositions are all pretty unique from that, for players that really want that high skill expression gameplay...

...which is why I'd like to hear you talk about those instead. Since I already knew you wouldn't like my WHM proposal so we didn't really need to even discuss it. :) I've already accepted you won't like any "leave one alone" option I present, no matter which it is, or even if I proposed adding a new Healer Job specifically to be "the simple one", so I'd rather just skip over that part and get to the good stuff of the other three since maybe we could have some agreement on those.

Other than Water -> Holy. That's a good idea I'm going to have to remember for any future proposals...

Float is an interesting idea, but I feel like the problem is it's based entirely on fight design. Either lots of fights will have to have puddles for it to matter (but if it matters too much, then WHM becomes OP), or fights won't have puddles and no one will care about WHM bringing Float. It's kind of like Expedient. Super useful when it matters (the movement speed component), but when you don't need it or when it can be detrimental (forced march mechanics), no one cares. I personally HAVE thought Float and/or jumping should mitigate some types of arena AOEs, but I'm not sure working that into a specific Healer would work, because then people would complain if they didn't have that Healer Job in their parties. In my FF8 game, just did the Brothers GF recently. Laughed at the NPCs running from the tomb shouting about using Float, and figured I could use it to avoid an Earth attack, but then in both fights when I saw Sacred and then Sacred and Minotaur both healing from Earth damage being absorbed by them (at least, I THINK that's how that works...might just be some kind of field effect, but either way...), I put two and two together and kept THEM floating for the fight, too.

It's one of the problems with situational non-damage/mitigation/healing utility - when it's useless, it's totally garbage, but when it's strong, it tends to be super strong (Expedient's speed buff was nerfed super fast); it shouldn't have to be binary, but for some reason, it often is.

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EDIT: To be clear:

I don't mean this to be unnecessarily dismissive or anything. I just know that anything even approaching "leave as it is" you're going to dislike or propose changes to, so we're just not going to agree on that and I think it's better to simply ignore those cases because there's no way to agree on it. Even my proposed WHM changes ARE changes rather than leaving it as it is, they're just compatible with someone playing as they do today being in more or less an equal position to someone playing it the new way (rather than the new way person having an advantage), which you don't wish to allow. That is, even "change it, don't leave it alone" is unacceptable to you unless anyone playing the old way is disadvantaged/put out/unviable/etc.

So since we CAN'T agree on that, I'd rather we discuss the others where we may actually have some avenues of agreement.

Anything that doesn't leave any of the healers in their current skill-ceiling-pancaked-against-the-floor state. Working toward getting better at playing a job should never make it actively more boring to play. "Find ways to spam Glare even more times" is an unacceptable "goal".

Nocturnal sect (able to be used in combat). Neutral removed in its place.

Bring back actual MP management.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Some details about the lore of the AST's arcanum deck, FYI, it's not a Jester, but a Knave in the deck. This is from the Encyclopedia Eorzea:

"The Deck of Sixty is most commonly divided into two distinct groups, the major arcana and the minor arcana. The six major arcana--the Spire, the Ewer, the Bole, the Arrow, the Balance, and the Spear--are said to represent the heavens and thus most often utilized in astrological and divinatory pursuits. Conversely, the minor arcana are believed to represent that land and its people, and feature six suits, each containing six cards numbered 1 through 6 (the pip cards0, and three face cards, for a total of fifty-four. Each suit possesses a corresponding element, class, and faculty, as well as direct tie to one of the six major arcana--all characteristics that can be employed (at the teller's discretion) during the scrying of a fortune."

A list of the six suits in the following order of detail:
Suit | Alternate | Faculty | Class | Element | Major Arcana

*snip*

"Face cards consist of the 'knave,' the 'lord,' and the highest-ranking 'lady.' When used in conjunction with the pip cards, their numerical values are 7, 8, and 9 respectively."

There's more, but this is I think the stuff not well known about. I'd love to integrate more aspects of this, such as having a Lord of Staves, or a Lady of Cups, rather than just the Crowns, and also include the Knave, but it gets convoluted very quickly. This is shared more just because I think it's interesting, not information that's easy to come by, and that there's a lot of worthwhile lore to try and build out of here, not to try and "um, actually" the reference to the Jester.

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I find lore interesting from a conceptual aspect, but I do not want a job held back due to what reads well due to lore or pretty animations. Yes, I like sparkly stars and stories however I would give that up in an instant for a job that has better gameplay- which I did.

I would not find a convoluted card system, what sounds "interesting" on paper becomes less so in practise when (at least for myself) cards are part of the job, the fun is spent dealing cards, healing and doing damage, and their is no major fascination in dealing cards. It's like asking a tank to get excited about rotating their mitigation - they're happy that they have good mitigation skills, they don't expect to spend all of their time looking at them or thinking about them.

There are some simpler things that could be done for QOL changes (remove some useless skills), and some more dramatic ones - such as bring back Nocturnal sect (ie. basically SHb AST). I could also propose allowing ASTs to change sects while in combat. Give AST another DPS skill or combo action.

I would also really be a proponent of restoring SCH skills or giving them alternatives, and I would say that each healer can make a good case for changes.

WHM:
Aero 3 is back. Same potency as glare. Increases potency of next heal by 50%. 15 sec cooldown. Heal buff stacks twice.

Dia has a 2.5 second cast time and works the same as thundercloud on BLM.

New OGCD: elemental ward. Puts a persistent aoe on the floor as big as asylum that increases your damage by 10%.

Any GCD heal that doesn’t consume a lily (cure, medica 2 etc.) while standing in elemental ward charges your lifebloom.

Your lifebloom works the same way as blood lily. However, it grants access to Seraph Strike.

Seraph Strike- Usable regardless of how much your lifebloom has been charged. Dash at the enemy and strike them with an attack that deals damage equal to the missed glares. Restores 10% of your MP. 50% chance to proc into enhanced Holy III. 15 sec cooldown.

Afflatus Misery- Now has a 50% chance to grant enhanced Holy III.

Enhanced Holy III- deals damage with a potency of 500 to all nearby enemies. Stacks twice. Grants freecure.

Glare- Has a 20% chance to grant Enhanced Holy III or freecure.

Freecure: Your next GCD heal is free (ie doesn’t consume lily or cost MP) but still feeds blood lily or lifebloom.

SGE
I really like Taurus’s ideas but I’ll toss in my idea too.

Sage has a raid buff. Libra. 60 sec cooldown. Increases damage dealt to nearby enemies by 5-10%. Every cast of dosis against the target has a 50% chance to grant a sting or a charge of phlegma. 30% of any healing you do while libra is active is dealt to any enemy affected by Libra.

Aimolipsía- AoE cone OGCD attack that lands 2 hits on the target and nearby enemies. 300 potency. 2 charges. 60 sec recharge.

Toxicon grants a free charge of phlegma.

Every four casts of dosis grants a charge of aimolipsia.

SCH

Miasma 3 is back. 18 sec duration.

Miasma 2 replaces art of war. Works the same as it did in SB.

Any time you apply a barrier, you gain a buff that increases the damage of your next miasma 3. Stacks 3 times.

Bane is back. Spreads your dots to nearby targets.

Shadowflare is back. Persistent ground AoE that continually damages any enemies inside. Consumes an aetherflow.

Energy drain is replaced by fester. Damage increases based on the number of dots the target has. Maybe on the GCD?

All heals sans adlo and succor consume fairy gauge. Fairy gauge heals have a 50% chance to grant aetherflow.

New cooldown that consumes your DoT's and makes them deal all of their remaining damage at once.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I find lore interesting from a conceptual aspect, but I do not want a job held back due to what reads well due to lore or pretty animations. Yes, I like sparkly stars and stories however I would give that up in an instant for a job that has better gameplay- which I did.

I would not find a convoluted card system, what sounds "interesting" on paper becomes less so in practise when (at least for myself) cards are part of the job, the fun is spent dealing cards, healing and doing damage, and their is no major fascination in dealing cards. It's like asking a tank to get excited about rotating their mitigation - they're happy that they have good mitigation skills, they don't expect to spend all of their time looking at them or thinking about them.

There are some simpler things that could be done for QOL changes (remove some useless skills), and some more dramatic ones - such as bring back Nocturnal sect (ie. basically SHb AST). I could also propose allowing ASTs to change sects while in combat. Give AST another DPS skill or combo action.

I would also really be a proponent of restoring SCH skills or giving them alternatives, and I would say that each healer can make a good case for changes.

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I’m just saying I would like to see the lore integrated and respected when possible. For example, I’ve had the idea that Minor Arcana could just draw the lord, the lady, and the knave rather than only 1. These could be enhanced versions of existing actions. And perhaps you get the lord of staves, the lady of crowns, and the knave of knives in diurnal sect, and the lord of irons, the lady of cups, and the knave of rings in.

And maybe all that looks like is something like the lord replacing gravity for one use, dealing damage to nearby enemies, and if it’s the lord of staves that causes your next draw to be the balance, and if it’s the lord of irons, that causes your next draw to be the spear.

This is just a very shallow thought to reflect what I’m saying, bI agree that it shouldn’t come at the cost of smooth gameplay. But if there’s a way to integrate the lore in a way that doesn’t convolute things, then I’d like to attempt to take that route.

White Mage:
The risk taker healer. A 1-2-3 combo that gets upset if you heal but the highest potential of DPS among the healers. As their hp gets lower the final skill of their combo's potency gets higher (20% maximum at 50% hp). Glare III upgrades to Light. Cure upgrades to Wind. Aquaveil upgrades to Water. Medica upgrades to Pray(non-element). Afflatus Misery is a chance prock at 60% every time you use an afflatus skill but the damage is halved and it is only a single target. Lilies no longer generate red gauge and only shows u when Afflatus skills are usable, instead Red Gauge will generate at a 30% chance whenever you lose hp. Dia>Dia III(does more damage than Dia)> then becomes Grace, upon using Grace does Dia III damage but also applies a mp restoration buff to the white mage (Memento of Graces). Using Grace again just refreshes memento's timer. Assize no longer restores mp. New skill: Afflatus Purgation: Upon having three red lily gauges, consumes them and fires a beam of the same potency as Misery (AoE) however bestows Memento of Misery, all Misery Procks while this is active become 100% (you still need to wait to gain lilies). Shares a button with Afflatus Misery. Thin Air, gain a lily.

Light: consumes 10% hp does 300
Water: shields yourself, does 330 on combo, base is 300.
Wind: 350 on combo (420 when hp is 50%), base is 310. If you complete the combo, 15% chance of Freeing Misery (Next Afflatus skill will guarantee Afflatus Misery prock)
Holy IV: 170 (consumes 20% hp, stuns)
Pray: 200 on combo (220 when hp is 50%), base is 100, provides party wide light-heal and light-regen (Memento of Prayer). Think of it like a Light Medica II but does damage.
Light>Water>Wind
Holy IV>Pray

Personally, I'd like something akin to SCH's Energy drain for SGE.
My biggest pet-peeve with SGE right now is that you have to overheal with your addersgall or just stay at 3 stacks for a lot of fights.

The best solution for it would be to give it an ogcd that consume a single addersgall but on a CD (something like 60/90sec) so SGE doesn't end up in a situation like most greedy SCH who just use all their aetherflow in burst windows.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

To be fair, being in a war is usually the result of having opposing interests, not alignment of techniques. In the lore, the White Mages of Amdapor's major power was Golemancy, and they fought against Mhach's Voidsent with their stone golems. In a bit of irony, the flying head mount you can get from PotD is probably the most White Mage-y mount in the game - the Unicorn you befriended as a Conjurer, but the flying head's description is that E-Una-Kotor created it from some of the stone of PotD in an effort to better understand the guardian golems from the Lost City of Amdapor. Indeed, Mhach's most powerful techniques were not Blizzards and Thunder spells, but things like Xenoglosy and Voidsent summoning.

Despite a lot of the community mentioning the spells, we have no lore that really supports White Mages using a ton of Quake, Tornado, etc magics. Quake is used by Xande, who isn't a WHM and existed well before Amdapor. A lot of elder and eldrich spellcasters use spells like that, but not really a lot of White Mages in the lore.

Stationary Healer with more and longer cast times that's more of a caster would be kind of neat if it weren't for the combat/fight design demanding lots of movement...

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Like I said, if Yoshi is unable to think of new mechanics, just mimic existing ones. As it stands, mimicking BLM would be the most logical course of action and would work with WHM being the GCD focused healer. As for movement, well, it wouldn't make much sense to worry about fights demanding lots of movement when Yoshi's golden child BLM exists. Quite frankly I'm gobsmacked that he hasn't swooped in yet since the job has been struggling in this meta at least compared to melees. I digress though; WHM as it stands in this game has been effectively merged with Geomancer with its druidic origins and starting out with earth and wind magic along with water. Thus, assuming the devs have no plans to add Geomancer in the future, it would make sense for Tornado, Quake and Flood to go to White Mage.