So does every hate new PLD now?

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Originally Posted by Wyther

Absolutely cannot stand it.

Ive removed it from my job hotbar, stepped down from main tanking our mount runs, and will NOT be playing this mess of GARBAGE ever again.

People have unsubscribed because of this, and if they wont undo this horrible decision next patch at the latest, I will too

this was absolutely not needed. PLD was in a very good place, and now they are back of the bus once again. Tell me of any other class that has to give up a rotation just to make things even remotely fit?

Its all over the place, and honestly playing a BLM is easier that this pile of ******

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This is just objectively false.

Paladin has been the worst tank in pretty much every scenario this whole expansion. It's overall DPS was roughly tied with Warrior for the lowest, it had no burst to speak of in a burst centric meta, it lacked CDs to the point of being an actual hindrance in both Abyssos and especially Dragonsong and its sustain sacrifices damage. Regardless of whether you like the rework, Paladin was essentially a dying job at the high level. It simply couldn't compete with the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Healers are truly the skeleton in the drowning child, mom and uplifted child meme.

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A lot of people seem to be card carrying NIMBY (not in MY back yard!) members. They're perfectly fine with plugging their ears to the complaints of other jobs, but the second it's them they expect EVERYBODY to listen.

Seeing as how you havent played ANY of the tanks, Nor even have a level 90 in anything.

Your statement is false.

A tanks job is NOT to outshine in DPS, but to hold the agro and take the punishment.

Maybe learn what the roles of each class are before you comment on something you have no clue and copy paste "what you hear"

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is just objectively false.

Paladin has been the worst tank in pretty much every scenario this whole expansion. It's overall DPS was roughly tied with Warrior for the lowest, it had no burst to speak of in a burst centric meta, it lacked CDs to the point of being an actual hindrance in both Abyssos and especially Dragonsong and its sustain sacrifices damage. Regardless of whether you like the rework, Paladin was essentially a dying job at the high level. It simply couldn't compete with the other tanks.

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I'll agree for the most part PLD had no real upsides and wasn't the best job to learn or optimise, I feel like they could have done a bit more with the rework though personally I hope we get some future changes as right now some things really feel a bit unpolished on the Job, but for the most part I find the rework actually not that bad you feel a lot less rigid and have a lot more flexibility now. I feel like Divine might is actually the best change giving PLD's a option to hold it for sustain/ranged outside burst windows (where you be range and sustaining anyway).

I can understand why people who liked old PLD wouldn't want to play it anymore, I say give it a try personally if people don't like it that's fair enough really, not everyones going to be happy about the rework, all I know is personally this rework needs a bit more polish as it's got some issues such as atonement breaking your main combo, FOF being around still makes no sense you use it on your magic burst mostly, Idk seems like they could just buff the burst? goring blade being a "press it once per minute" button.

I feel like they have something going with divine might, but they do need to make more improvements to the job in my opinion and I hope they're looking at some feedback other then "revert it"

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Originally Posted by Wyther

Seeing as how you havent played ANY of the tanks, Nor even have a level 90 in anything.

Your statement is false.

A tanks job is NOT to outshine in DPS, but to hold the agro and take the punishment.

Maybe learn what the roles of each class are before you comment on something you have no clue and copy paste "what you hear"

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In actually difficult meaningful content where job balance is important with enrage timers to beat, you bet your ass tank damage is important, just as important as healer damage.

Aggro is a joke to hold toggle stance on, to get aggro, provoke and shirk facilitate maintaining or swapping aggro easy.

"take the punishment", Paladin was bottom of the barrel compared to the other tanks, and borderline griefing your healers in the early weeks of Savage prog/ reclears. Paladin absolutely required mitigation from other sources like co-tank or healers for damage reduction skills to get through certain busters, because its defensive were so bad with block not working on bleed, and in DSR Paladin was seriously hurting for mitigation especially in phase 6, you don't have to do the content to see where a job is underperforming in its jobkit. Plenty of resources and cooldown/ mitigation spreadsheets to look at that show it was lacking mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Wyther

Seeing as how you havent played ANY of the tanks, Nor even have a level 90 in anything.

Your statement is false.

A tanks job is NOT to outshine in DPS, but to hold the agro and take the punishment.

Maybe learn what the roles of each class are before you comment on something you have no clue and copy paste "what you hear"

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I'm assuming you're talking to me.

If so, this is an alt account. You're welcome to look up Cassandra on a certain website for my credentials. I assure you, I have both several 90s (in fact, every single job but AST/MCH at 90) and play tanks.

With all that aside, perhaps you should actually know what you're talking about before criticising. Every role in the game is meant to deal damage. Both tanks combined contribute roughly 1.5 times that of a DPS. In other words, omitting tank damage would be the near equivalent to two of your DPS having permanent weakness for the entire duration of any fight. Better yet, it is statistically impossible to clear any Savage fight if neither tank did damage. Even with gear, you'd essentially be demanding your DPS play perfect to come anywhere close to the DPS check.

Nevertheless, I never once mentioned tanks "outshining DPS". I directly compared Paladin to the other tanks, all of whom were better at damn near everything. Dark Knight contributions monstrously higher DPS while having superior mitigation. Gunbreaker is much the same but simply weaker in outgoing damage while trading in some mitigation for better sustain. Even Warrior, despite being weaker in some fights, had a vastly superior defensive suite. Was Paladin still viable? Absolutely. It just couldn't compete with the other three tanks. Or to borrow your phasing, it couldn't "outshine" any of them.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'll agree for the most part PLD had no real upsides and wasn't the best job to learn or optimise, I feel like they could have done a bit more with the rework though personally I hope we get some future changes as right now some things really feel a bit unpolished on the Job, but for the most part I find the rework actually not that bad you feel a lot less rigid and have a lot more flexibility now. I feel like Divine might is actually the best change giving PLD's a option to hold it for sustain/ranged outside burst windows (where you be range and sustaining anyway).

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I feel somewhat the same myself. There's still some jank to clean up, especially in the button count. However, I think they kept most of what made the job solid intact and just need to iron things out. Contrast to the complete tear down of Summoner and I'll welcome the more cautious change. My own take is I think they can afford to axe Circle of Scorn and merge Holy Spirit/Circle into a single button with AoE. I'm not sure how I feel about Goring Blade yet but just cleaning up the button count would be a good step.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

overall DPS was roughly tied with Warrior

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What's wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I feel somewhat the same myself. There's still some jank to clean up, especially in the button count. However, I think they kept most of what made the job solid intact and just need to iron things out. Contrast to the complete tear down of Summoner and I'll welcome the more cautious change. My own take is I think they can afford to axe Circle of Scorn and merge Holy Spirit/Circle into a single button with AoE. I'm not sure how I feel about Goring Blade yet but just cleaning up the button count would be a good step.

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I don't mind if scorn stays, but if they removed it I wouldn't mind, I think the only issue is it would make level 50-60 PLD really even worse then it already is, a big issue that new PLD has is cutting out the DOT management you had in HW makes it really painful to play PLD until stormblood now, I really really hope that they make PLD at least have some magic in HW if not ARR, I like your cleave Idea with holy spirit, just make it do like 40% less damage to other targets (also update the animation a bit, so it makes more sense). Easily cuts out at least one ability

Theirs Plenty of ways to get rid of PLD'S "bloat" without changing the class: Rework Holy shelltron into a targeting ability (with 3 seconds cd so you can still can use one on self and the other tank), Make the Req button turn into Confiteor, Using goring blade gives you the FOF buff or just buff the req burst and remove fight or flight (make it a early version of req that gives u 4 powered up gcds), like you suggested remove circle of scorn (slightly buff expiacion) and/or make Holy spirit into a cleave that works both for aoe/single target, Removing "shield bash" Some people like this ability thought? so maybe not but meh.

I think theirs no excuse for the amount of PLD bloat we have right now, we don't really need to rework anything core to the new Paladin I think Building upon what it is now could be Interesting, I think atonement needs to not interrupt your 1, 2, 3 combo for example.

I don't think combining Intervention and Holy Sheltron would fix button bloat. Yeah it makes sense since they both cost gauge and do similar things, however I would now have Holy Sheltron on my bars twice, one being a macro so I can quickly use it on the other tank. This is how I have Heart of Corundum, The Blackest Night, and Oblation set up.

Removing Shield Bash won't change anything for me since I don't even have it hotkeyed due to me almost never using it. It's just set off to the side, just in case.

I think a better option would be removing Holy Circle and just giving Holy Spirit 50% AoE falloff damage.

Or maybe buff the potency of Resquiescat and give it AoE damage, put it on the GCD, and have it turn into Confiteor after using.

Or turn Goring Blade into a trait that makes Circle of Scorn deal an additional 250 potency to your main target.

I dunno, just free up a button or two, SE, please.

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Originally Posted by Espon

I dunno, just free up a button or two, SE, please.

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Do anything but consolidate the one way combos huh?