6.1 Kaiten Changes

It did mess with my memory but I'm getting used to it. Can weave in other things to try to make up for the damage loss.

Still, Kaiten could be reworked into an OGCD self-damage increasing stack with 120 sec cooldown. Four stacks, can be used on any weaponskill until the stacks deplete, but skilled players can line it up with quadruple midare or something more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

Kaiten could be reworked into an OGCD self-damage increasing stack with 120 sec cooldown. Four stacks, can be used on any weaponskill until the stacks deplete, but skilled players can line it up with quadruple midare or something more efficient.

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This is just a more awkward version of Bunshin which already started off awkward and went through several iterations to arrive where it is now. We need a reversion to 6.08 SAM posthaste before any further "reworks" butcher the job beyond recognition.

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Originally Posted by Reese_Clairdale

This is just a more awkward version of Bunshin which already started off awkward and went through several iterations to arrive where it is now. We need a reversion to 6.08 SAM posthaste before any further "reworks" butcher the job beyond recognition.

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it's actually scary to think that your job can be butchered quite easily and not hear anything from it for 4 months.
it's also scary that if it's an hole they dug themselves they're more than willing to sacrifice the player experience so that their job can be slightly easier.

my opinion is that they should've waited with Kaitens removal till 7.0 (honestly any major rework apart from machinist, since that job is just in a bad spot)
get everything in the back end ready for 7.0, kaiten removal but a rework to make sure this doesn't happen and then when 7.0 announcements happen they can show off the changes and it will actually be cool unlike what happened with Endwalker.
where it just felt like they were upgrading existing moves and not really adding anything new to the mix.

like with the Dark Knight portion where it was obvious how little actually got changed, same for Scholar.
if they pool all these reworks into 7.0, then they got around a month before the 1st savage tier to get some fine tuning done and the media tour will then serve as an play test for the new system.

but instead they're slowly rolling these unfinished changes to the public and then act surprised when the backlash is massive.
like when Kaitens removal was announced the twitch chat DEMANDED the person in charge to explain why, which Yoshi just responded with "i gave the final OK to these changes" ... that's fine and all, but why was this even concidered?

100% agree that whatever fundamental gameplay changes they had in mind, they should have withheld job changes in that direction until 7.0.

However, now that some of the plan has been laid bare, I would still rather not entertain the idea that Kaiten's removal, or Tenka Goken becoming a circle, will eventually make sense at some undetermined point in time in 6.2, 7.0, 8.0, 12.0, or whenever. I can only work with the knowledge and experience I have in the present, I am merely one customer with no inside developer info or contacts. As the game is now, the changes show complete disregard for the time of veterans who were invested in the job, and new players seeking a job with different flavor.

It is extremely important to push back right now not just because the devs requested it, or that the reversion of SAM would fix it in the short term, but because it would show that the devs are willing to admit they made a genuine mistake, and that they need to reevaluate whatever changes they had planned for all jobs in the future, not just for SAM. It would go a long way to restoring some trust, and would be more proof that the devs won't fall to the same hubris that eventually destroyed World of Warcraft.

Good if you like it but I completely disagree. It turns the Kenki gauge into the Shinten gauge and that reason alone is enough to invalidate all the positive things this change did. And that's not even getting into how the potency changes dont feel good and how guaranteed crits is a meme that makes things like DRG buff less valuable.

I despise Kaiten removal till this day, so I disagree.

Kaiten kept what little Kenki nuance interactions we had. It's completely downgraded to a " Shinten Gauge ". If that wasn't enough, AoE-ing ARR dungeons before Lv62 is without Kyuten. Forcing you to weave Shinten to not bleed out Kenki. Aesthetically a loss to also simultaneously fix nothing, not Action nor Button bloat. Even if it was to replace Kaiten with something new there's nothing new.

Lastly, the notion that it is to " Fix Damage Fluctuations " appealing to say parsers. I fail to see how Kaiten removal was necessary to fix RNG damage fluctuations.

My civil opinion, doing less for more feels unrewarding. All of this forcefully made Samurai more braindead then the uncivil trolls claiming kenki-management was before Kaiten removal. Some are happy that they never needed to master anything, or master less, and can be lazy with both casual content, and parsing higher made easier with less effort and thinking.

All I'm hearing from sam players rn is that it feels more like mch than sam. Lots of oGCD spamming. Then again, mch does actually have some responses to manage (pooling heat/battery) whereas sam is just shintenshintenshintenshintenshintenshineten.

If kaiten was "holding" the designers back from a job design perspective, fair enough, but dont remove it mid patch cycle then pretend like theres not a huge gaping hole in the job. Maybe a rework without kaiten but with another spender will add that depth in a future rework but I'm not holding my breath. I'm not a fan of the change, and I applaud people for calling sqex on it, but after this times passed I dont think itll be coming back

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Originally Posted by Lustre

All I'm hearing from sam players rn is that it feels more like mch than sam. Lots of oGCD spamming. Then again, mch does actually have some responses to manage (pooling heat/battery) whereas sam is just shintenshintenshintenshintenshintenshineten.

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That's a really good comparison point - MCH has a lot of OGCDs, but the majority of their uses are packed into the Overheat window, in which you tend to alternate between Gauss Round and Ricochet between Heat Blasts, and because this is during Overheat, it's part of your rotation.

Samurai used to have OGCD variety as well, and because of Kaiten, kenki spending used to be part of the rotation too - now neither are true.

In MCH terms it'd be like if they merged Gauss Round and Ricochet into a single OGCD to consolidate the spam into a single button, removed Wildfire and Hypercharge to make OGCD usage independent of the rotation, and removed Reassemble to lower burst, all at once.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

That's a really good comparison point - MCH has a lot of OGCDs, but the majority of their uses are packed into the Overheat window, in which you tend to alternate between Gauss Round and Ricochet between Heat Blasts, and because this is during Overheat, it's part of your rotation.

Samurai used to have OGCD variety as well, and because of Kaiten, kenki spending used to be part of the rotation too - now neither are true.

In MCH terms it'd be like if they merged Gauss Round and Ricochet into a single OGCD to consolidate the spam into a single button, removed Wildfire and Hypercharge to make OGCD usage independent of the rotation, and removed Reassemble to lower burst, all at once.

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No, it'd be like they removed Reassemble, and that's it.

Mach has no resource management, beyond ensuring you don't waste any of it.

Edit: I suppose it's more accurate to say they don't have meaningful resource management. You have one thing to use heat for and one thing to use Battery for.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No, it'd be like they removed Reassemble, and that's it.

Mach has no resource management, beyond ensuring you don't waste any of it.

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I wasn't talking about resource management, I was talking about how OGCDs fit into the rotation, which it does for MCH, and used to for SAM, but now doesn't.

Alternating between Gauss Round and Ricochet as opposed to just spamming a single button has nothing to do with resource management either.