The nature of the Sundering has been spelled out in a Nier Reincarnation side story.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd say it's a safe bet that it can be taken seriously as canon given that the Nier universe is already directly connected to the Final Fantasy XIV universe via the Nier raid storyline.

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No, Nier is part of FFXIV in the same way that FFXII and FF Tactics are part of FFXIV: it is not. Characters and events in FFXIV that resemble characters and events from Nier are not the characters and events from Nier. They are characters and events that resemble characters and events from Neir. In the same way, it's safe to say that characters and events in Nier that resemble characters and events from FFXIV are not the characters and events from FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Ishikawa also had a direct hand in crafting it which suggests a desire to acknowledge and maintain a sense of canon alignment.

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Until an XIV dev says, explicitly "the events in this other game that isn't FFXIV are canon to FFXIV" or the information appears in official FFXIV material, you cannot assume canonicity.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

So we can disregard the short stories on the Lodestone then, also everything in the Encyclopedia Eorzea?

When the writer that created the character writes a story for the character, I consider it to be accurate to the character. No matter where it is shown.

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This. Not to mention that this easily fits within what we're presented with in ShB where Ishikawa appeared to have more creative control than she did in EW. Her storytelling appears to be consistent where she's able to do so.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Not to mention: "In the simplest of ways, they die and die." Given they were devolved to such a primitive state it's likely their life expectancy was short as well, probably dying to things like the common cold and infections from cuts. What a horrific thought.

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If we take the description literally, then it makes it sound like people were more or less reduced to the level of infants in terms of intellectual development at first. Combined with the fact that Ancient civilization was clearly global and occupied dense cities, and EE1 saying that early humanity was basically just some scattered tribes, a die-off on a catastrophic scale becomes implicit. It's not like they would have known how to farm or hunt.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Honestly, that argument was always kind of a weird decoy anyway. Because sure, the sundering is murder, but you know what else is murder? Murder. And the Ascians committed a lot more murder.

It's a weird play for equivalency that then refuses to admit equivalency.

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Though I'd say that the lead in bodycount seems debatable considering the above (14 worlds, all beginning with mass death), regardless of what other people feel, I've never believed that the Ascians are more righteous than Venat, despite finding their motives more comprehensible. My complaint has always just been that the text is far more sympathetic towards one than the other in a way that comes across as sort of creepy, and ties into the broader messy plotting.

Though admittedly, I've also kinda come to dislike how EW went out of its way to compel you to forgive and like Emet, or more specifically to see the Rejoinings as part of some grander plan that "had to happen" to achieve this happy ending. FFXIV seems weirdly keen to have you stan mass-murderers, and I'm not really here for it.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

So we can disregard the short stories on the Lodestone then, also everything in the Encyclopedia Eorzea?

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Yes

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

When the writer that created the character writes a story for the character, I consider it to be accurate to the character. No matter where it is shown.

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I don't.

Each to their own, I guess. Though I don't personally see much point in dismissing supplementary material specifically designed to further flesh out the game's very expansive lore...

I believe it was also confirmed that we'd be getting some new short stories at some point in the future...?

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Originally Posted by Lurina

I mean, regardless of what other people feel, I've never believed that the Ascians are more righteous than Venat, despite finding their motives more comprehensible. My complaint has always just been that the text is far more sympathetic towards one than the other in a way that comes across as sort of creepy, and ties into the broader messy plotting.

Though admittedly, I've kinda come to dislike how EW went out of its way to compel you to forgive and like Emet, or see the Rejoinings as part of some grander plan that "had to happen" to achieve this happy ending. FFXIV seems weirdly keen to have you stan mass-murderers, and I'm not really here for it.

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My complaint here was more pointed at Shadowbringers as the initial instigator than Endwalker, but I do agree. I've heard that from around Shadowbringers on (which feasibly could've also influenced Stormblood and its patches) they wanted to write a story with no clear 'evil', where nobody is doing things for no reason beyond malice, because they don't want to put a story like that out into the world. And that's fine... but when we're talking about a setting where the main ongoing villains were omnicidal ghost wizards and a mashup of the Romans and the Nazis, trying to turn that setting into a story with 'no clear villains' apparently means finding pathos that justifies extremely horrible crimes. It doesn't feel right to compel forgiveness and liking for Emet-Selch, given his very tangible actions.

I've mentioned before that I swallowed Endwalker's attempts to do so much better, I think because the crimes of Venat, Fandaniel and Meteion are so much more fantastical and less relatable to real-world events. Venat feels like a figure in a creation myth, Fandaniel feels like... well, a JRPG villain, and Meteion feels like a figure in a philosophical thought exercise like Laplace's Demon. That's actually a good angle for villains that 'aren't clearly evil', because their crimes become abstract and conceptual rather than things with real-world analogues. To me, the Sundering is like the flood from the story of Noah, it's too impossibly enormous to be declared much of anything.

Oh ok. Guys make sure not to reference the short stories on the Lodestone or anything in the EE going forward since it's not cannon. Uh and might as well delete these two threads since this isn't cannon either lmao

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

Yes

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Is this really the hill you want to die on?

I can understand not wanting to see lore put on different games to be canon, but the story put on ffxiv own website and books? There's no way it's not canon.

I guess the Ironworks of 8UC surviving isn't canon now, good to know U_U

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

Not in the game = not canon.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

So we can disregard the short stories on the Lodestone then, also everything in the Encyclopedia Eorzea?

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

Yes

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This is an overgeneralization. Official FFXIV material is official, and the side stories published on the Lodestone are official FFXIV material.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

When the writer that created the character writes a story for the character, I consider it to be accurate to the character. No matter where it is shown.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

I don't.

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You're both overgeneralizing here. It is important to consider where the material is presented. Just having the correct writer is not automatically an indication of canonicity, but material presented on the Lodestone is official FFXIV material.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Each to their own, I guess. Though I don't personally see much point in dismissing supplementary material specifically designed to further flesh out the game's very expansive lore...

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Again, source is important. It's not "supplementary material" for FFXIV if it's just an event in a completely different game unless an official statement by the dev team blesses it as canon.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I believe it was also confirmed that we'd be getting some new short stories at some point in the future...?

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And when we get those short stories they'll be on the Lodestone, the official site for disseminating FFXIV information.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

I guess the Ironworks of 8UC surviving isn't canon now, good to know U_U

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If only.

I'm firmly on the side that "Tales From..." is canon, but that story should not exist.

All their actions were justified by the conclusion that the Black Rose aftermath was ultimately not possible for humanity to survive, which is why they put two hundred years of ingenuity (not to mention a massive solar battery and Allagan knowledge repository) into saving an alternate timeline instead of investing in their own.

To just turn around and go "hmm, actually I think we'll be okay" was silly.