Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

Thanks so much for your efforts, Celesti. You're truly going above and beyond to help have our voices heard, and it's much appreciated. Can't imagine how long this must have taken you.

Thank you for doing this Celesti. It's nice having an all-in-one thread to link to people.

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Originally Posted by HidingYoshis

Been playing SAM since the start, even in 2.0 in my heart.

This was a straight massacre on my boy. Losing Kaiten was so pointless. It's not fun anymore. The job doesn't flow as well. The reasons for removing it were bad. The reasons to try and balance around its removal was bad.

Kaiten was one of the more visually spectacular yet paradoxically low key skill we had, and the animation vs global cooldown timings made it flow to a degree of art.

It was the build up to the climax of our big hits; the drop before the bass; the lead up to the musical crescendo.

To heap on to removing a wonderful skill that is as core to SAM identity as Midare, they also destroyed the other big adrenaline boosting factor, the other main identity of SAM, which are the large single numbers.

Nobody asked for this. Samurai did not need this. If reducing actions was all that was needed, there were several other routes to take.

Shoha could have been upgraded to Shoha II, by having single target with % falloff mathed in like the rest of similar abilities -- including Guren! -- or Tsubame could have been rolled into Iaijutsu just like Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi: Namikiri work together.

There was no reason to destroy Samurai identity. This is not a mid-expansion patch change, and this is also an incomplete change. To remove Kaiten and have a good flowing SAM would require a more thought out rework, and those should happen for the launch of an expansion or with special focus paid on the job like before.

Samurai was in a very good state in terms of its gameplay. It wasn't as good as it was in Stormblood, but it was better than it was in Shadowbringers.

Now it's like the development team is trying to take what didn't work from Stormblood and what didn't work from Shadowbringers and add an extra layer to what doesn't work by removing Kaiten.

At this point, my entire character identity has been built around Samurai. I am not a meta chaser. I have played it through the good times and the bad times. I can't make myself play other jobs, even though I try. They don't appeal to me, and I don't see myself playing them for any length of time. Worse still, I no longer even have the motivation to push forward and do the ultimate I was waiting for.

But the problem is, now my character identity has been harshly murdered, I do not find it flows well and I actively called this when I saw the changes because I had memed this very scenario over the years on dummies. Congratulations SE; this is the first time in years I am considering not paying my sub, even though my house has kept me here during downtimes. This feels like when Blizzard destroyed my classes many times and told me to hit the road.

I hit that road, and I haven't been back in years.

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I feel the same, I've been playing Sam since 3.0 through and through. Even during the times where it was not that good, it never felt as bad as it feels now and I just can't play it at all.
The entire identity of the job is lost : building up for big hits. Now we have none. Even Monk has stronger moves than Samurai now.
Kaiten felt very good to use, the animation, sound and how it gave us something to press before a iaijutsu.

In short, remove all the changes from 6.1. All of them. Even the Tenka Goken change was uncalled for.

Still of the opinion most of the arguments are naff. Rotations are static and have been basically forever. So the idea that removing g kaiten removes thought from the class... no thought when every encounter you enter you press kaiten after 12 seconds again after 18 seconds. Again 15 seconds later. And roughly every 15 seconds after that... and then you go into the next encounter and do the exact same thing.....

It doesn't even feel powerful when you use it on every single iajutsu it just becomes "standard" not "powered up"

Amusing how it's the last straw but when tanks and healers got shafted and homogenised to hell noone cared.

Kaiten is just one issue in what is ultimate a terrible combat system overall. There's o thought or choice in any of it. Just follow the same rotation over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Still of the opinion most of the arguments are naff. Rotations are static and have been basically forever. So the idea that removing g kaiten removes thought from the class... no thought when every encounter you enter you press kaiten after 12 seconds again after 18 seconds. Again 15 seconds later. And roughly every 15 seconds after that... and then you go into the next encounter and do the exact same thing.....

It doesn't even feel powerful when you use it on every single iajutsu it just becomes "standard" not "powered up"

Amusing how it's the last straw but when tanks and healers got shafted and homogenised to hell noone cared.

Kaiten is just one issue in what is ultimate a terrible combat system overall. There's o thought or choice in any of it. Just follow the same rotation over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....

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Yes. You must be such a 1337 parser that you never have down time. Nor do boss fights you do ever have phases / moves / have adds / switches target / have knockbacks or have invulnerable window.

Or maybe, I dunno, you can learn what an actual SAM opener looks like because it sure as fucking hell do not do "encounter you enter you press kaiten after 12 seconds".

If you are pressing kaiten 12 seconds in, whether it's removed or not is seriously irrelevant to you.

If possible, you should edit in Roxus' thread that highlights JP's response as well. Other than that, thank you for compiling this.

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

Or maybe, I dunno, you can learn what an actual SAM opener looks like because it sure as fucking hell do not do "encounter you enter you press kaiten after 12 seconds"..

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Adniteddly only recently 90 but at level 80 you pretty much did kaiten after 12 ish seconds. skill speed dependant. hakaze, shifu, kasha,. hakaze, jinpu, kaiten, higabana,, gekko, meikyo, yuki, kasha, kaiten, midare... was basically the start of every encounter through 5.0

but either way whatever the 90 opener is you'd still be pressing kaiten at the same times in every encounter.. exactly how ninjas would basically always put trick attack up after the 5th gcd.. and schs would chain strat... and always the same in every encounter.

but the point remains rotations are static and repetitive.. down times a joke these days as well. near 100% uptime on many bosses and raids. its one of the reasons brds and machinists are complaining.. lower dps because high mobility is no longer a valid excuse because even melee can essentially keep 100% uptime.

combat is so static and rotations are so fixed and thoughtless. thats why the developers deliberately crippled the macro system. because Yoshi didnt want players to just macro there entire rotation and win every fight.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Adniteddly only recently 90 but at level 80 you pretty much did kaiten after 12 ish seconds. skill speed dependant. hakaze, shifu, kasha,. hakaze, jinpu, kaiten, higabana,, gekko, meikyo, yuki, kasha, kaiten, midare... was basically the start of every encounter through 5.0

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Did Meikyo Shisui not exist back then? (I started FFXIV last summer - I actually don't know).

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Originally Posted by Dzian

but either way whatever the 90 opener is you'd still be pressing kaiten at the same times in every encounter

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You're right, and removing Kaiten now makes that not necessarily the case because without it your kenki no longer has any interaction with your stickers. Some may approve of this change, most, it seems, do not. Having kenki actually tie into your rotation was important - without it our rotation is even simpler than it was before and kenki is just mindless Shinten spam - no need to manage it relative to your stickers, just push the button whenever you feel like it, and without Kaiten, "the button" is accurate to feel - the Shinten spam is real.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Adniteddly only recently 90 but at level 80 you pretty much did kaiten after 12 ish seconds. skill speed dependant. hakaze, shifu, kasha,. hakaze, jinpu, kaiten, higabana,, gekko, meikyo, yuki, kasha, kaiten, midare... was basically the start of every encounter through 5.0

but either way whatever the 90 opener is you'd still be pressing kaiten at the same times in every encounter.. exactly how ninjas would basically always put trick attack up after the 5th gcd.. and schs would chain strat... and always the same in every encounter.

but the point remains rotations are static and repetitive.. down times a joke these days as well. near 100% uptime on many bosses and raids. its one of the reasons brds and machinists are complaining.. lower dps because high mobility is no longer a valid excuse because even melee can essentially keep 100% uptime.

combat is so static and rotations are so fixed and thoughtless. thats why the developers deliberately crippled the macro system. because Yoshi didnt want players to just macro there entire rotation and win every fight.

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I mean...Duh? Most classes have a dedicated opener after all, and the majority of classes work around fitting themselves into a decent opener? Isn't it a point that SE was making most CDs 1 or 2 minutes just so we have a good amount of Synergy for openers and burst windows?

And I wouldn't have a problem with Kaiten being a short CD oGCD rather than tied to Kenki if it wasn't for a glaring issue that was introduced in 6.0. That being, Ogi Namikiri also benefits from Kaiten. My issue with removing Kaiten is more the fact that Iaijutsu now feels like it hits like a wet noodle. Adding a penny or two of damage to my basic combo isn't as interesting as our big hits, so it made the fizz into flat.

Besides the fact that Macros have an actual delay if you try to do so. I remember a popular macro back in 2.x was for BRD to tie Bloodletter as higher priority to Heavy Shot so that you can spam it and automatically use Bloodletter.

Bump for visibility. I have said what I needed to say and we aren’t changing our minds on these bad changes to a once amazing job to play