On the Tyranny of Burst Windows

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I'm reposting this from another thread because I think I hit on a more fundamental issue to all of these job changes.

The problem we are running into is that cross-class, on-rails burst windows have been ruining job design. Everything is being pruned away in service of a 60/120 second script.

This design choice to lean into burst windows to me is SO WEIRD for a game that is increasingly obsessed with (a) casual appeal and (b) soloable content. With respect to both of these goals especially--but also with respect to just making a fun experience regardless of who or how the game is played--syncing up with 7 other players should not be more important than making the jobs fun to execute in themselves.

Imo, all party damage buffs should be removed--i.e., heavily minimize or eliminate "damage synergy." Then jobs would have much more flexibility in rotation design and job expression, and we could perhaps even see the return of cut abilities. I think only the buffs to party damage need to be removed--most other support abilities still work fairly well in encouraging both player agency and party movement coordination without encouraging syncing up burst windows.

Syncing up precise rotations with 7 other players just doesn't make for very fun content. It has a high frustration rate and minimal payoff, and personally I get no thrill from burst window boosts. Certainly not as much as just having cool abilities that actually do things themselves without needing to be in another player's buff window.

I think if a change like this were made, it would substantially open up both job and encounter design and allow the game to actually be *reactive*, *enabling*, and *fun* again.

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Is this your first MMO? There is not a single MMORPG or even an RPG that does not have burst windows.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

My counterpoint to this is that FFXIV is increasingly moving toward movement-based combat. The majority of "synchronization" in the game--and indeed most of the fun, reactionary gameplay that keeps players interested--is moving around to deal with mechanics and avoid damage.

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This is how the game has worked since ARR. Are you new to this game?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Again, I have to reiterate that it is specifically the party-wide *damage* buffs that are parasitic because the more buffs are implemented around that 120 second window, the more entire job rotations are contorted around that. Defensive, healing, movement buffs do not directly affect rotation design the way that party damage buffs do. They may affect encounter design, which is a separate issue, but damage buffs are largely what is responsible for the "homogenization of jobs" people are complaining about.

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Ninja buffs are pretty ingrained in there class design they have had them since ARR. I am not really sure how damage buffs are responsible for homogenization when most of them are fairly unique from job to job. Now I will agree that forcing design to be worked with in these windows is bad, how ever if let's say a dragoon does buff it's crit for 20 seconds then it's major damage rotation should be done with in a 20 second window. I think you are narrowing the over all issue of job design to one thing, when in reality there is a slew of issues that have caused class homogenization. If anything this would actually homogenize your DPS classes even more than it would help diversify them.

Job rotations aren't contorted around that, but, if you do your rotation well, if you just use your party buffs in the opener and reuse it when it's available, you'll 90% of the time be in sync with the other party buffs... Don't make an issue out of something that easy, especially when syncing is only useful in savage and ultimate, where you're supposed to know what you're doing anyway.

And what would you get from removing those from the game ? Rotations won't change, since jobs aren't designed around them. Make them disappear, rotations will stay the same, and worse, people will still use them at the exact same timings, since that's already the most optimal timing for using them. That will just lower the dps of classes that rely on them, like DRG or SMN.

Like, burst windows and shit only really apply for end-game savage content. 99% of the game it doesn't matter at all and you can have everyone playing sub-optimally and be just fine. Only savage where you need that party synergy.

Think a better solution is not make every class dps and go a more traditional role with jobs serving functions that don't require a damage sync or doing damage itself but are more party based with unique functions beyond "this button make other DPS number go up". How about some stuns or blindness or elemental effects against bosses rather than players. Why can't machinists set landmines that blowup when an enemy stands on them leading to tanks luring enemies over and leading to more engaging fights rather than just avoid glowie circles.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Ignoring the fact that most mechanics require group cooperation, we still have:

* Damage reduction buffs (Tanks, Healers, Pranged, RDM)
* Healing increase buffs (Healers, MNK)
* Partner abilities (DRG, DNC)
* Shields (Tanks, SGE)
* Speed buffs (SCH)

Again, I have to reiterate that it is specifically the party-wide *damage* buffs that are parasitic because the more buffs are implemented around that 120 second window, the more entire job rotations are contorted around that. Defensive, healing, movement buffs do not directly affect rotation design the way that party damage buffs do. They may affect encounter design, which is a separate issue, but damage buffs are largely what is responsible for the "homogenization of jobs" people are complaining about.

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So exclusively mitigation abilities that suffer from being completely unneccessary beyond a two-week period in three and a half fights once in eight months. Not even talking about the fundamental difference between pass/fail check like mitigation vs. infinite scale of damage. Great synergy, much teamwork.

Although I respect that you at least had enough sense to remove Peloton from your list of "job synergy" abilities with the edit.

Or they could insanely buff those skill and make them usable only once per fight to counter dps check or deal faster with harder phase.

But yeah i agree with you, burst window is just annoying and even scuffed most of the time in duty finder.

You know that the second they remove these kind of mechanics someone is gonna start complaining about them "dumbing down the game further" right?

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

You know that the second they remove these kind of mechanics someone is gonna start complaining about them "dumbing down the game further" right?

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And they would be entirely correct.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

And they would be entirely correct.

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that you see this thread gaining positive traction on the Forum... until the moment they actually implement it and everyone saying this would be a "great idea" would start complaining against it.
I was vague, but I don't like the idea of removing said party/synergy. I don't understand why anyone would think this would be good for group-intended content.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think if a change like this were made, it would substantially open up both job and encounter design and allow the game to actually be *reactive*, *enabling*, and *fun* again.

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I'd argue the exact opposite, dumbing down the game and removing an aspect of group content. Class identity is already lacking, don't want to make this game even easier with less options.

if you dont want to do your burst window just dont, its always your choice to play badly. :^)
not like you can even see your damage, right, tos abiding op?