Just Delete PvP at this Point

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I will straight forward telling you right now 6.1 will not work for your EU datacter because the people there seems just don't like the concept of Player vs Player.
The problem is always with the people, not the system.
As far as SE concern, they have a healthy PvP sector and they never aim for e-sport like Blizzard did.
Whatever happened in EU region due to its people do not equals overall performance.

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The thing is, its not about going towards e-sport like competition. What i am trying to say here, is that FFXIV PvP lacks the fundamentals of a good PvP system. I mean, it does work, but the same can be said about putting chocolate on Pizza, you CAN eat it, but what about the taste?

And from the way i see it, FFXIV PvP is a Pizza that is just the dough, tomatosauce and chocolate, halfway backed and then left in the oven from Heavensward all the way to present day.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I have yet to see a single one of you post a single meaningful comment on these Forums that make genuine suggestions on how to improve things on the side of PvP.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ted-incidents.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...eedback-Thread

Those are just my own. There are plenty more made by many other veterans of FFXIV PVP. Not to mention all the work done on the other social platforms as well.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

As for me, i stopped bothering going past Gold Rank ever since Season 18, because the effort clearly isnt worth the Armor. If 677 Games as BLM in the first Month dont get me past Gold, then neither will 1200 Games.

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This is important to highlight, to show that it is actually difficult at times to get into top 100. You said in a few posts before: "All that you and your collaborators fear, is that youre not going to live on easy street anymore once PvP balance (in terms of Job design) hits a point, where proper matchups are possible, and you wont be able to cheese your way trough the Modes as you are used to." So which is it? Is it easy? It can't be if you "tried" so hard and still didn't get there. There are people who played over a thousand games just to get Top 100, it wasn't easy for them. I personally MISSED Top 100 two seasons in a row by about games worth of points. It was no ones fault but my own. Took a break, came back, been making top 100 ever since. Knowing how difficult and demanding it has been at times helps me respect the time put in by other people who received rewards that I didn't get whether by lack of time and effort.

People like me know it's flawed. People like me have been trying to get SE to make changes for years. Some people have put forth way more time and effort than myself to hopefully make this happen. Our complaints on others posts isn't because we want things to stay the same, we just don't want the spirit of competitiveness taken away. This game is so incredibly easy as it is. Think about it, let's say you committed and played 1200 games for top 100, you would be in the same boat as us when someone makes a post for the hundredth time asking for old rewards to be exchanged for wolf marks. That's not even an exaggeration, those posts exist cause people want all the cool stuff without putting in any of the work for it. You can improve on PVP, making it more accessible to new people while keeping veterans and the spirit of competitiveness happy, without invalidating the accomplishments of those who put in the time even you weren't willing to put in.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Copium aside, as long as Squeenix doesn't understand that PVP revolves mainly about 1vs1 combat, and then Group content in a MMORPG, FFXIV will never be good in that aspect. If they cant design the fundamentals, how can anyone ever expect them to do any better in large scale PvP?

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Originally Posted by Anhra

What i am trying to say here, is that FFXIV PvP lacks the fundamentals of a good PvP system.

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What are you even asking for ... You want 1vs1 balance, then group content for PvP, but they better don't mess up large scale PvP?
Do you realize that balancing around all 3 types, is not a "good PvP system"? Sounds like you can never make it right, there will be always something to complain.

I don't see any suggestion from you either, you seem mad that some have an "easy street", while in reality, PvP was lowering the skill gap so much the last years, that it was pretty balanced between 'newbie with a little practise' and a veteran player.
They sucked out the fun with that, because "being good" meant you had to go the extra mile/tryhard to mitigate the occurence of unlucky RNG elements in PvP.
Example: You did an awesome super synced burst, but newbie uses a potion and it snapshots at low HP to get the most value out of it, instant 6k Heal, he magically survives, eventhough everyone did their best possible. While when the burst happened on you, you know it is going to happen, you pre potion, get only a 3k heal out of it, but effectively you were punished for knowing the mode better, if you waited to get lower HP to get a bigger potion value, you maybe would have died because of latency/tick.

I hope they don't balance as strict anymore, it is okay if some abilities are a bit broken on each job, it is more fun than uptime/PvE-pressure strat. Not sure if there is room for abilities with very long cooldowns, if you only have around 8-9 abilities again.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

What are you even asking for ... You want 1vs1 balance, then group content for PvP, but they better don't mess up large scale PvP?
Do you realize that balancing around all 3 types, is not a "good PvP system"? Sounds like you can never make it right, there will be always something to complain.

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First, having PvP balanced arround both duels as well as Group content isn't the Rocket Science you make it out to be. If Classes work in a way, where the possibility of winning with any Class aganist any of the other Classes lies within the realm of possibility, it is already a good foundation for PvP. Once a good foundation is set into Stone, it will also project itself well into ANY Group Content, no matter the size.
Will one Class be stronger than another? Absolutely, but in exchange, another Job could excel in performing even better if circumstances allow for it, like doing hit and run attacks from Stealth, to name a example.

Allow me to remind you, that FFXIV has 19 playable Jobs in PvP. 8 of them, are straight up unkillable in a 1vs1 if we assume that both Players are of equal/similar Skilllevel in terms of performance. From the REMAINING 11, 5 out of 6 Jobs hold a overwhelming advantage over the remaining 6.

Our Jobs have many issues, like having too many PvE Skills in a PvP scenario (like raw damage abilities without additional effects), debuffs and CC are way too few and AoE versions outside of splash range is nonexistent. And too make matters worse, Sustain Potions and the overwhelming amount of non-punishable Healing from any side, is making Fights extremely onesided.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I don't see any suggestion from you either...

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Second, You want suggestions? I'll give you suggestions.

Try taking a look at PvP from other MMOs. On how ESO does it, on how WoW does it, how Tera Online does PvP, or any of the oldschool MMOs, to name a few examples. Watch how PvP combat flows there in both 1vs1 Scenarios as well as Group Content, such as Arena fights, Battlegrounds and so on. And then, look back at FFXIV. What do you think all those other MMOs have there in Common what FFXIV does not have? Ill leave the answer up to you, im sure you will figure it out. Its not that difficult.

Now how to MAKE FFXIV better in terms of PvP? Id say there are many ways of doing so. But what this Game needs first and foremost, is have a good selection of Modes to play, STICK TO IT, and then improve and go more in-depth.

Now what does in-depth mean exactly?
It means, that things such as all avaiable Classes, have a fair amount of variety in them ( such as Skills being customiseable trough a Skilltree/Gear) and/or Content having random Elements that might make a difference, like Items/Buffs that can be picked up, Landmines, you name it.
If something like this, is properly executed, then even a underperforming Class can adapt to the everchanging Metagame of PvP good enough without falling behind, simply by being able to approach things from another angle if another doesnt work out for you.

Tl;dr: FFXIV PvP is too Black and White and needs more than just another Gamemode.

They don't like a more complex PvP mode, because when we had it during 3.x, newbies couldn't get into it and just got farmed by good players.
They specifically didn't like all the buffs/debuffs showing, too much skills on hotbars and some jobs having synergy with others.
Their idea was to attract more players with a more casual PvP mode. The same happens in PvE btw.
I can't recall any PvP players asking for such drastic changes in 3.x, they were openminded and surprised about it if anything, because they knew some balancing was needed for some classes (mnk/mch), but playing PvP since then felt like you only play with one hand. So don't blame the players who still continued to play it and get the rewards tied to it lol, it was the devs decision to mix it up to the state we had for the last 16 seasons. I think they were happy with it until JP fanfest tournament happened.


Edit: I posted it before somewhere and keep it for meme, it was their presentation
https://i.imgur.com/tFg4kHx.png

But yeah, it is hard to do engaging 1vs1, 4vs4, 24vs24 together - if you have only like 5-15skills that mostly only do dmg, and mostly have a cooldown under 30s. But just wait and see what next patch brings, maybe it is fun to you.

The good thing is, that the promises of a Director isn't worth much on the long run of things from a objective perspective (remember when Yoshi P. also said that PLD will never be able to block magic?) so with some luck, his thoughts changed during all this time.

But honestly speaking, i think making PvP more casualfriendly is just a excuse from their side to not put more effort into it than it actually deserves.

Casual PvP can still have complexity and still be easy to grasp ( TES Online is a good example on this. You always work with 12 Abilities at most, 2 of them being ultimate abilities. And yet most builds on any role CAN potentially score kills in a 1vs1 scenario) if it is designed properly.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

The good thing is, that the promises of a Director isn't worth much on the long run of things from a objective perspective (remember when Yoshi P. also said that PLD will never be able to block magic?) so with some luck, his thoughts changed during all this time.
But honestly speaking, i think making PvP more casualfriendly is just a excuse from their side to not put more effort into it than it actually deserves.
Casual PvP can still have complexity and still be easy to grasp ( TES Online is a good example on this. You always work with 12 Abilities at most, 2 of them being ultimate abilities. And yet most builds on any role CAN potentially score kills in a 1vs1 scenario) if it is designed properly.

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Except you are expecting a 100% turn around on something already tried and proven failed by the development team
FF14 PvP prior to Stormblood was a WoW clone.
It used to be just like WoW.
Ninja with complex control it is possible to kill someone under 15s then walk away in stealth while his friends is still mounted and not aware of what happened.
Veterans always outplayed newbies and pretty much put a stop on the PvP community growth when FF14 originally targeted audiences is PvE players

I am also surprised you are using WoW as example as it is infamous of being unbalance artificially by Blizzard development team; yet, WoW also never balance around 1 v 1..
FF14 PvP after Stormblood did get rid of complex system and able to diminish the gap between newbies and veterans and PvP community starting to experience a real growth.
Perhaps FF14 being too balanced where veterans missing the tools to create a status quo where they are able to destroy newbies like they did in ARR/Heavensward.

They are not going to go back because they did found a working formula that is different than WoW.
Also, MMORPG PvP balance will never aim for 1 v1 or duels. (Tera Online PvP was a joke)
Mind you, I have been and always am a lone wolf PvP players in FF14 and I have never expect any game to be balance at 1 v 1, it is just an absurd idea.

Currently, the only thing I log in for is to play Frontlines (on any day except Borderland Ruins). Haven't even completed the EW MSQ. As "bad" as PvP is in this game, I find it more enjoyable than any of the PvE content. Maybe because it's the only thing that can still surprise you in this game after you've done it once, or maybe it's because the quality of players in FL is so low that it's easy to go godlike...

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

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You can insult WoW / Tera Onlines PvP as much as you want, but regardless of your personal take, it is a objective fact that both Games have/had (since Tera is now pretty much dead, at least on EU side) way better PvP than FFXIV ever had.
Current FFXIV PvP design is a absolute mess and doesn't deserve to be defended on any matter. It isn't fun, it isn't rewarding (especially not for new Players) and the Job Balance in combat is completely artificial and only revolves arround zerging.

And it isn't about "going back to the old days" as you maybe used to know it, or do i say that FFXIV should copy X MMO. All i was providing, was examples and references of Games that have, from a Gameplay perspective (and in a objective as possible manner) more fun PvP experience than this Game has. Those have put in FAR more effort into their PvP and were played by both casuals and dedicated People alike.

And this "what about the childre... casuals?" Excuse is getting old here. Try thinking for yourself first before you think about others here. Just like Raiding isn't for everyone, the same goes for PvP. Those who show interest in it, know on a vague scale what they sign up for and unlike WoW, which has to a degree forced PvP, that isn't the case for most MMOs that have PvP in them.