Would this compromise for positionals work?

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Originally Posted by HemlockEvergreen

I'd rather have boss mechanics that require precise positioning and movement than having positionals be a "thing", TBH. Phasing out positionals as a mechanic entirely in return for having more complexity in boss encounter would lead to more interesting boss encounters.

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Positionals doesn´t block the boss encounter to be more complex. It´s the design choice SE made aka

- Make sure pretty much everyone can kill them.
- Make sure buffs will lineup.
- Make sure oGCD healing is up at each damage income.
- Make sure to have a perfect circle / square as boss-room

Positionals have nothing to do with SE´s "search for perfect alignments and symmetry". And to get more complex boss encounters doesn´t mean that the class itself would be fun gameplay-wise. The most bosses get stale pretty fast for different reasons. Ofc it´s subjective to call something fun, but i still don´t get why so many poeple are against a compromise.

- Give MNK his positionals back and call him positional-heavy.
- Leave DRG as the 2nd most positional-class.
- Leave SAM as it is for "mid-tier" in positionals.
- Take away the positionals on RPR and NIN. Work more around their gauges / ninjutsu.

What would be the issue with it? That you hinder yourself to play MNK or maybe even DRG in the end? I don´t play any caster out of leveling, because they´ve casting times. I do play only BRD as RDPS, because DNC and MCH are completely braindead. And and and... Not any class has to be for everyone, it´s not possible. So why not cater different groups with different aspects with different amount of positionals as caster has different amounts of casting times and play completely different in kind of mobility?!

So yeah, serious question... what´s the problem to live with such a compromise?

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Originally Posted by HemlockEvergreen

I'd rather have boss mechanics that require precise positioning and movement

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This already happens.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I find it highly suspect that people actually "enjoy" the positional game play. They enjoy the extra damage given. That's about it.

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Let me put it this way. I'm going to do the same max damage regardless of whether positionals exist. Their existence can only chance a potency nerf for me. And yet I'd still prefer positionals.

That is because, yes, I do enjoy moving around the boss, especially when conal/quarter AoEs or the like potentially require me to shake up that order or pre-plan TN usage. Obviously, Monk better capitalizes on those situations than the likes of Dragoon, but all non-DRG melee have ways to change the timing of their positionals around mechanics, and I find that fun to manage.


The only positional changes I'd like to see are (A) for DRG's Wyrmwind Thrust to go on the GCD and Chaos Thrust be made 6 seconds longer (also as to be more worth using for low-target DoT-spread) and the order of Fang and Claw and Whirling Thrust to be interchangeable and (B) for Monk to, after getting back positionals on all skills, to get a leniency mechanic such as every 3rd successful positional hit causing your next would-be missed positional to deal full damage regardless, stacking up to 3 times, such that every rotational GCD has a positional and every positional rewards you, but not every positional need be made successfully.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Positionals doesn´t block the boss encounter to be more complex. It´s the design choice SE made aka

- Make sure pretty much everyone can kill them.
- Make sure buffs will lineup.
- Make sure oGCD healing is up at each damage income.
- Make sure to have a perfect circle / square as boss-room

Positionals have nothing to do with SE´s "search for perfect alignments and symmetry". And to get more complex boss encounters doesn´t mean that the class itself would be fun gameplay-wise. The most bosses get stale pretty fast for different reasons. Ofc it´s subjective to call something fun, but i still don´t get why so many poeple are against a compromise.

- Give MNK his positionals back and call him positional-heavy.
- Leave DRG as the 2nd most positional-class.
- Leave SAM as it is for "mid-tier" in positionals.
- Take away the positionals on RPR and NIN. Work more around their gauges / ninjutsu.

What would be the issue with it? That you hinder yourself to play MNK or maybe even DRG in the end? I don´t play any caster out of leveling, because they´ve casting times. I do play only BRD as RDPS, because DNC and MCH are completely braindead. And and and... Not any class has to be for everyone, it´s not possible. So why not cater different groups with different aspects with different amount of positionals as caster has different amounts of casting times and play completely different in kind of mobility?!

So yeah, serious question... what´s the problem to live with such a compromise?

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Because positionals are not "fun", they're busywork and leftovers from an era of different encounter design. As XIV ARR was heavily based on early 2000s World of Warcraft, as per the development team's own admission, and they borrowed this mechanic. WoW used to have skills that could only be used from behind, and tank gameplay is still pretty strictly based on your position in relation to the boss AFAIK i.e. you can't block/parry if you're not facing the boss. As encounter design itself became more busy and movement-intensive, this kind of positional-based gameplay became a little bit pointless.

Contemporary encounter design includes way more precise party-wide movement ("dance-like encounters") than they did back in the early 2000s of the beginning of the 2010s. This is antithetical to melee positionals. Optimization for an specific encounter can be achieved in other ways, like maximizing uptime, optimizing GCD usage, etc.

I'm not "against" positionals, I just have no strong feelings about them. They're a "meh" mechanic that's doesn't fit very well with contemporary MMO design. I'd gladly sacrifice them for more hectic encounters and interesting mechanics.

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Originally Posted by HemlockEvergreen

Because positionals are not "fun".

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All rotation that does not contribute to meaningful decisions is "busy work". That therefore comprises at least of 90% of all actions you will take and buttons you will press in this game. However, positionals not only take no additional keys for their added apm, but in the contexts of movement-requiring mechanics or limited space, do in fact add meaningful decisions.

Compare that against DRG's never-altered from 7-button melee combo, for instance, which provides zero decision-making and takes up 7, up from 0, additional keys for what amounts to automatic damage. (There's a reason button-consolidation mods can play DRG optimally off a single button each for ST and AoE GCD skills, but have literally nothing to offer for the likes of Monk beyond Perfect Balance -> Blitz.)

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As XIV ARR was heavily based on early 2000s World of Warcraft, as per the development team's own admission, and they borrowed this mechanic.

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Wow, that is some hardcore misinformation.

WoW has one positional, in the whole game: Backstab, which turns into Ambush under Stealth. That's it. That's probably the least positionals or positional elements of virtually any major MMO. ARR's positionals come primarily from the Yoshida period of XIV 1.x, when Yoshida added them in at no basis with or from WoW, and attached even frontal positionals to melee and rear positionals to tanks with a majority of weaponskills having positionals. Positionals are very much an XIV thing.

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I'd gladly sacrifice them for more hectic encounters and interesting mechanics.

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Positionals aren't taking away your mechanics. They're damn near irrelevant to performance compared to the simple likes of getting one more cycle of burst CDs out before the fight ends or downtime hitting at or just after the 2-minute mark, which encounter design already clearly doesn't give a damn about.

Positionals, are, however, often the only thing that makes our DDR/dodge mechanics constitute actual decision-making for those without cast times.

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Originally Posted by HemlockEvergreen

I'm not "against" positionals, I just have no strong feelings about them.

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This entire post is a pretty strong feeling against positionals. And again, based on what I've seen of encounters in this game, they have gotten increasingly more hectic with every expansion, so the existence of positionals has not actually hindered encounter design to any appreciable extent.

You say that positionals "are not fun" like that's a universally accepted position, but you're claiming this in a thread where people have said they did have fun with positionals, optimizing their use of True North and their uptime overall in the face of boss mechanics designed to make doing these things difficult. If a player hates being sub-optimal for not landing all their positionals/firing off all their casts, the correct solution for them is to play better and learn the encounters to the point where they can do those things more consistently, or to play jobs where they don't have to worry about such things. And that's how it's been in FF14, at least up until Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by HemlockEvergreen

Because positionals are not "fun", they're busywork and leftovers from an era of different encounter design.

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Not gonna say something to the rest, the others here already did that. But about fun?! It´s highly subjective. Given to my statement above, the compromise would be "play SAM, RPR or NIN". What´s the problem with such melees? Why does it have to be MNK or DRG? MNKs core-gameplay had always been about tons of positionals, followed by DRG. But the gap between them is that MNK has a lot of speed and DRG is slow with tons of oGCD´s. So what is it? Aesthetic?

To call something a "leftover", when it has been a thing ~1months ago and that any melees but MNK got more meaning (potency) on positionals, is highly questionable. "Busy" is subjective too... i´m busy to to reach the 999 999 999 Gil, but in kind of current MNK gameplay? I´m bored af.

Honestly, the real takeaway from this thread is that not even OP's personal cheerleader liked their last post ever on these forums.

You and the OP looks like twins separated at birth.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

If you want to move around and hit a mob from a particular position then just do it. Why do you need to be "rewarded" for it?

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Do you ever read what you say then think about it? Or do you just say stuff