Its exactly like every DRK thought.

I did a Tower of Zot earlier with a DRK and he was taking so much damage I had to pop almost every cooldown to keep him alive on some of those pulls.

I checked his gear and it was on par with mines, and I noticed he was using TBN and several cooldowns.

Got it again an hour later and had a WAR and I didn't use a single cooldown. I almost went OOM because I didn't need to use any of my Addersgall Charges besides Raid Wides. lol

I just dread it when I see my Tank is a DRK and I feel so bad for them.

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Originally Posted by Crater

No offense, but this is a pretty ironic way to start your post when you then go on to implicitly suggest that Gunbreakers are doing the first two steps of their combo without ever finishing one, solely to pump their passive healing.

I understand that a lot of people aren't happy about these elements of Dark Knight right now (even if I disagree with a lot of specific criticisms/suggestions), but there really does come a point where it turns into a sort of groupthink hysteria, and people are inventing scenarios that don't practically exist and measuring the class by unrealistic metrics just to invent new ways to call it bad.

If you want to bring in other parts of the kit and make a more holistic argument, that's fine. But in a one-to-one comparison of the passive healing from each tank's standard GCD rotation, Souleater is not especially disadvantaged when compared to Brutal Shell, Holy Spirit, or Storm's Path.

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None taken. So no worries there.

And the analysis does apply actually. In a situation of survival where the tank is the last soul standing, and the boss or raid boss is 3 - 1% health remaining, Gunbreaker stands at a distinct advantage in comparison to Dark Knight because they can simply rely on brutal shell alone to help sustain.

I have seen others report using this exact method to stay alive in combination with the other tools of their kit, simply repeating 1-2 to get the net benefit of Brutal Shell to sustain them in a “ Oh ****!!! “ Situation, and win the day.

So, the comparison works, and stands. In an act of final defiance and last desperation, Gunbreaker is better suited for survival, not even bringing invulns into it, based on the sheer speed and potency of the heals, stronger and faster than Souleater, that they can pump out.

Is it IDEAL? Absolutely not. But can it work in a pinch? Yes, and it has. Speed of heals tied to a lack of a mana mechanic that can be boosted with skill speed is still a net benefit in the end.

Drk has one reliable source of sustain, and our most powerful mitigation chaining us to our mana in turn, in comparison. And in order to fuel that cost, we must rely on even more gcds ( Blood Weapon ) To fuel it.


And it’s weaker than Physick. Often regarded as an absolute joke of a heal among many and sharing the notable similarity of sentiment to Living Dead. I.E. some don’t even slot it.

Edit: Spelling, Grammar.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

And the analysis does apply actually...

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I think the issue is that it was not framed as such, being the fringe case scenario of a last ditch effort to stay alive where all other aspects of the kit are thrown out the window.
You left out any reference of such in your post and so it implied a generality to those timings and healing capabilities, as if that is happening all the time as opposed to potentially happening within the very specific situation that you were thinking of.

Point being that if you want to speak about things in regards to a very specific situation, make it very clear what that specific situation is and that you are speaking within its contexts.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I think the issue is that it was not framed as such, being the fringe case scenario of a last ditch effort to stay alive where all other aspects of the kit are thrown out the window.
You left out any reference of such in your post and so it implied a generality to those timings and healing capabilities, as if that is happening all the time as opposed to potentially happening within the very specific situation that you were thinking of.

Point being that if you want to speak about things in regards to a very specific situation, make it very clear what that specific situation is and that you are speaking within its contexts.

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My time in posting is usually short, given the insane work hours I have and also working in a healthcare related field. So I am not always able to get everything out. Regardless, the contrast I did want to invoke still stands, since folks were talking about Brutal Shell vs Souleater in comparison.

I know folks won’t agree with the comparison, and that’s fine. But it also still stands as commentary that adds to some previous posts for the sake of comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

When you see Warrior has more barrier than TBN, and near double of healing than GNB/PLD, more healing than DRK/PLD put together, or DRK/GNB put together, you know it's super broken.

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WAR now has two barrier moves while DRK only has one. So it makes sense for it to have more shielding now. It's also the tank with the identity of healing while damaging, so it also makes sense that it self heals the most. Just as if you were to compare which tank does the most mitigation, or which tank is more versatile, PLD would win. The only real problem here is it shows that DRK is clearly behind and should at the very least be on the same level as GNB since they do similar damage.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

And the analysis does apply actually. In a situation of survival where the tank is the last soul standing, and the boss or raid boss is 3 - 1% health remaining, Gunbreaker stands at a distinct advantage in comparison to Dark Knight because they can simply rely on brutal shell alone to help sustain.

I have seen others report using this exact method to stay alive in combination with the other tools of their kit, simply repeating 1-2 to get the net benefit of Brutal Shell to sustain them in a “ Oh ****!!! “ Situation, and win the day.

So, the comparison works, and stands. In an act of final defiance and last desperation, Gunbreaker is better suited for survival, not even bringing invulns into it, based on the sheer speed and potency of the heals, stronger and faster than Souleater, that they can pump out.

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Endwalker spoilers ahead for trials

I can confirm this. First, I was in Endsinger on GNB and after the scene with the scions, when the fight becomes notable easier, my healers managed to get hit wby everything and die and the DPS followed. With the boss at around 30% everyone but the Paladin and myself were dead, long story short, without a single clemency on me, only on himself, we learned that the boss only gains damage up stacks up to 16 and that's not enough damage to drop a GNB below half when rotating defensives. Obviously, this section of the fight is an outlier because this part is so easy. But a run a few days later had me in a situation where the healers died as well, this time I had a DRK off tank and I was MT GNB and I did this combo-stutter you mentioned and managed to get from around 70% down to the 50% mark where you kill the add. I did this entire amount of tanking without a healer, no RDM to help, and I don't actually recall the DRK using TBN on me, just on himself and other DPS.

If this isn't enough, I was in Zodiark normal and there was a party wipe. A Combination of first-timers and still fresh faces led to everyone dying to either too many vuln stacks or getting punted off the map. I was the last man standing and while I cannot remember the bosses HP percentage, I decided to test my limits since I knew the fight well and this was the 3rd attempt so I just kinda wanted to get it done so I could move on. I didn't have much trouble staying capped since HoC is busted, Aurora is incredible long term, and Burtal Shell is just great. Stack mechanic happened, I just LB3. A few other mechanics happen until he ends up with a full rotation and I get to another stack mechanic. Superbolide this one, heal up with HoC+ Aurora and 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2 then he enters a phase where he stops with normal attacks and I can go back to DPS rotation. I went two full cycles against the boss without a healer or any support backing me and I was absolutely fine, and I did end up killing it on my own. Thank god for that because one more stack marker and I was dead.

I want to put a note that this was not even due to my ability to execute GNB mechanics at all. As long as I knew the fight, didn't take unnecessary damage, and popped basic tank abilities, I was fine. This was done exclusively through the basic melee combo and OGCD's that every tank should know how to rotate. I am a very average player. And GNB isn't even the best in the healing department. We all know who wins that award. But if I had been on DRK for that? That would never have worked. Staying on topic for the original thread, I think PLD could also have handled both situations. In the first scenario, the OT was a PLD and he did in fact stay alive without my support as well. Unlike me, he did fall below half, it just never mattered. And technically I was falling under half as HoC was forcibly activated a handful of times, but it never showed me below half after the heal.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I think the issue is that it was not framed as such, being the fringe case scenario of a last ditch effort to stay alive where all other aspects of the kit are thrown out the window.
You left out any reference of such in your post and so it implied a generality to those timings and healing capabilities, as if that is happening all the time as opposed to potentially happening within the very specific situation that you were thinking of.

Point being that if you want to speak about things in regards to a very specific situation, make it very clear what that specific situation is and that you are speaking within its contexts.

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It is however still yet another, if tiny, mark against DRK's adaptability. There's just nothing you can really do when all the standard tools fail, except pop LD as one last hail mary. GNB gets true invuln and will probably be able to help heal themselves, PLD can always switch over to turtle mode with Holy/Clemency until MP runs out, WAR just laughs.

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Originally Posted by Oextra

WAR now has two barrier moves while DRK only has one. So it makes sense for it to have more shielding now. It's also the tank with the identity of healing while damaging, so it also makes sense that it self heals the most. Just as if you were to compare which tank does the most mitigation, or which tank is more versatile, PLD would win. The only real problem here is it shows that DRK is clearly behind and should at the very least be on the same level as GNB since they do similar damage.

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I'm not suggesting kill it's identity.

I understand Warrior having more heal sustain than others, but when it's getting pushed to double the amount vs PLD/GNB, and 4x the amount vs DRK, it's climbing up to a point, Warrior is becoming the immortal tank further expansions. Warrior has the shortest Invuln cooldown with absolutely no draw backs, DRK has a 5 Min Living Dead that needs rework on it's debuff, GNB Bolide 6 Mins forcing to 1HP, PLD HG being a very long cooldown 7 mins no damage, all three of these have drawbacks.

Now when you have the tank that literally fights without needing healing assistance for a long while, self power healing that can be popped wherever it's needing it, no invuln drawback, great burst, you'll have to submit this job has been obtaining more power heals every xpac and without putting limits on it, it's going to run into a big problem with comps setups meaning no healer, or 1 Healer only required for example. In the future this job needs drawbacks as every other tank does, except DRK being in a bad spot at the moment in some places.

PPM is a very stupid metric to use because you don't pop everything the moment it's on cooldown. The stats in that thread lack so much context they're basically worthless.

For instance they seem to think you'll be using divine veil and shake it off on cooldown as personal shields? (Let's ignore the fact that they think divine veil applies to the PLD for second here.) It also ignores the fact that PLD has passive blocking as an extra, unique form of mitigation that none of the other tanks have.

It's dumb.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

PPM is a very stupid metric to use because you don't pop everything the moment it's on cooldown. The stats in that thread lack so much context they're basically worthless.

For instance they seem to think you'll be using divine veil and shake it off on cooldown as personal shields? (Let's ignore the fact that they think divine veil applies to the PLD for second here.) It also ignores the fact that PLD has passive blocking as an extra, unique form of mitigation that none of the other tanks have.

It's dumb.

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Yet it's a good metric to show just how much potential the tanks have in the category if the chips were down and you were forced to do it to survive.