Low developer effort rework for the DRK Job

OP is just saying what everyone what half a brain is thinking. I love the game but the way this keeps going. Things need to change.

They keep us in the dark until the last very moment and things end up badly (lets be real here they almost always have been since SB) we gotta wait months for a fix that might not even come. Meanwhile, everyone else is high on the "they will rework it in the next expansion don't worry" juice.

I mean, even if they up doing it doesn't mean its going to be good or substantial. It wouldn't surprise me if they thought more plunges and lasers was a rework.

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Originally Posted by Xrison

People on this forum get offended WAY too easily. I understood that "low effort" refers to the ease of OP's suggestions to implement. Not that the devs put low effort into the current DRK build.

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Absolutely. I once got banned for calling someone's statement a certain word not the person themself. They responded with the same word but only I got banned not them lol. Guys be careful what you say the forums are like walking on eggshells.

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Originally Posted by Xrison

People on this forum get offended WAY too easily. I understood that "low effort" refers to the ease of OP's suggestions to implement. Not that the devs put low effort into the current DRK build.

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THIS ^

Of all the people replying, it seems Xrison was one of the few who understood my wording. Now, it might just be poor wording on my part, given the situation, so I will edit some things that for the sake of clarity. Low effort meant that from a coding standpoint only a few numbers needed to be shifted around, while the abilities and their function stayed the same. The changes would give the job a completely new feel, while not requiring as much effort to create new abilities or sequences , like with the summoner.
All that being said, there is no need to carry on this argument. I understand some people are upset about tanks in general or just dark knight, but I do not believe that throwing insults around ever got people's minds changed, especially over the internet.

Now... any ideas on the changes proposed, as opposed to thoughts on the wording? Who would like to see this style implemented on the DRK. What numbers would be more balanced? Does the class need completely new mechanics, or would such changes as described above feel good enough to give it its own personality? Discuss away, and please argument your reasoning for the changes. It's good to see where people's reasoning comes from.

You make some excellent points. I had not thought the duration through from a latency POV so 4 seconds is better. The % damage reduction being op on tanks due to their HP was something I considered. However, if Oblation gets turned into another shield, it would be like having 3 TBNs. That is the only reason why I left it in my suggestion as a % reduction. A more extreme rework for the ability which could solve this dilemma would be if Oblation can only be cast on a target and never on yourself. I still think the low duration compensates for the flaw of it being % dmg reduction instead of a shield. Tanks by themselves dont really need more mitigation overall and boss mechanics for tanks are calculated for their skill cooldowns, so a DRK would be more inclined to use Oblation for saving others.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I really don't want to see the job dumbed down and homogenized even further.

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I dont agree that a change which makes an ability less frustrating to use, but equally complex in its mechanics means dumbing it down. It will be more forgiving for new players on the job, but good players will still want to use it to its max potential - only when it can pop for the free Dark Arts proc. Its mechanics stay the same and the lack of mana cost is balanced by the increased cd.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Such means we can't use Salted nearer to its cooldown if adds are to spawn within its duration. Given that adds often won't last the full duration of Salted Earth, being able to put it down nearer the CD and then blast later has felt to me like an option worthy of its oGCD taken.

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Another point that I had not considered. Thinking about it now, though, how often does the situation you describe happen? In my personal experience and from watching other DRK gameplay, I notice that SE is used when the trash/adds are already gathered. Keeping in mind that SE is no longer a ranged ability, but casts at your feet, we cant really use it as a ranged aggro tool upon add spawn. The case you described does exist, no doubt about it, but I think its less common than the alternative.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This just feels like needless alignment hell for a really wonky increase to potency-per-minute and seems no less like bloat than did Enhanced Unmend.

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DRK only has the one combo and it occupies a lot of our regular GCD, especially during single target. Soulstealer is used a lot more during a fight than Unmend.
My suggested trait triggers of a commonly used ability and reduces cd for one of our best skills. Unmend has a realistic chance to be used 1-2% of the total fight time (?) and reduces cooldown for an ability already having 2 charges and useless the other 98% of the fight(due to you being next to the target). To put them in the same category of bloat seems unfair.

Thank you again for the constructive reply. Unfortunately, you were the only one who stayed on topic.

Let's keep the discussion going.

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Originally Posted by Xrison

Not that the devs put low effort into the current DRK build.

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But they did...
the changes and new stuffs DRKs got this expansion is the most basic and most minimal they could have done.

DRK this expansion is like that gif of Homer tapping a computer from the couch with a broomstick while the kids stare in awe/despair outside.

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"What does your dad do?"

"He's the DRK job designer."

"That took a whole expansion."

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Originally Posted by C0ATL

DRK only has the one combo and it occupies a lot of our regular GCD, especially during single target. Soulstealer is used a lot more during a fight than Unmend.

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That's irrelevant to what I'm saying, though. Because you have only one combo, any effect that is generated from it that does not reward precise timing will have little (i.e., use Bloodspiller early as not to excessively accelerate AD/C&S CDR) to no real (gameplay) interaction. All an Abyssal-Drain CD reduction attached to Soul Eater would do is cause you to feel further penalized for having any downtime (since your portion of uptime-dependent ppm increases), but in a way more annoying to calculate, while --far worse-- causing you to feel penalized for having acquired the Blood gauge, since that means fewer Souleater per minute.

If it has no actual effect on gameplay save to worsen your relative potency regenerated between fights/during downtime, make it more difficult to plan CDs, and to later penalize you for gaining new skills... that's bloat at best.

CDR should only be used when (1) the job needs a lower portion of downtime generation (i.e., because the job already has too much potency owed to purely normal-time-based CDs) and --more importantly-- (2) it is manageable, and (3) its effects are satisfying. (WAR at least has the latter two, for instance, attached to Enhanced Infuriate, though the gameplay effects were more noticeable when Infuriate only had a single charge.)

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Originally Posted by C0ATL

Another point that I had not considered. Thinking about it now, though, how often does the situation you describe happen? In my personal experience and from watching other DRK gameplay, I notice that SE is used when the trash/adds are already gathered. Keeping in mind that SE is no longer a ranged ability, but casts at your feet, we cant really use it as a ranged aggro tool upon add spawn. The case you described does exist, no doubt about it, but I think its less common than the alternative.

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Not often, but if we remove even the least expensive (here, only an additional .67 apm required, not even an extra button) nuances, we've only ourselves to blame when content is designed increasing towards those less nuance-capable kits.

I'd argue also, though, that Salted Earth should be allowed to cast anywhere (within 25 yalms), as before. Mods have already found ways to allow for perfectly smooth, perfectly responsive (and queueable) ground-targeting for M&KB and nearly the same (through target-snapping before placement) for controller -- much the same as has been requested for the default game since ARR (see early comments on Shadowflare, Fiery Arrow, Sacred Soil, etc.). It's absurd to remove a noticeable degree of control just because they can't be bothered to fix targeting systems that deserve fixes for more than just the one ability.

You can tell these hacks didn't have any plan to make things better when they stealth nerfed Living Shadow's potency for the SOLE PURPOSE of putting it back to its original potency 8 levels later, and pretend it's new. It's like if your dad took your playstation out of your room, boxed it and gave it to you as a christmas present a year later. It's either maliciousness or incompetence, and either option should be met with scorn, not the praise that's being dumped on it by the zealous idiots who pretend Square can do no wrong.

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Originally Posted by RefundEndwalker

You can tell these hacks didn't have any plan to make things better when they stealth nerfed Living Shadow's potency for the SOLE PURPOSE of putting it back to its original potency 8 levels later, and pretend it's new. It's like if your dad took your playstation out of your room, boxed it and gave it to you as a christmas present a year later. It's either maliciousness or incompetence, and either option should be met with scorn, not the praise that's being dumped on it by the zealous idiots who pretend Square can do no wrong.

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This... clearly wasn't thought through. I realize it's fun to get offended, but note that unless you end up underpowered over the affected level range, potencies have merely been shuffled (in this case, to your advantage) rather than removed.


Living Shadow being less important over the 80-87 range would only be worth complaining about if DRK's damage were weaker than other tanks across levels 80 to 87. Otherwise, having already been balanced without the full-power Living Shadow, you're simply looking at Living Shadow making up a slightly smaller portion of your overall damage than it used to, until level 88. That's not a problem; it's probably even ideal.

Consider the alternatives. If you're balanced across level 71-80 but then get a stronger capstone skill than most, you're temporarily overpowered at a level cap important to synced content. That's not great. Now, you could nerf anything or everything else related to rotation ST damage instead of that skill, but then you're undertuned while leveling AND you need more traits cluttering up your Actions & Traits page by which to give back that lost power to many skills, rather than just the one, come level 88.

The end result is really just that the capstone skill is temporarily less important, making less of your damage involve a DoT on a long CD. Unless we're actually underpowered over only the span reliant on that level 80 skill for parity... so what? It just means your damage is less hampered by / invested in a clunky DoT.

Tl;dr: They more than likely simply nerfed Edge of Shadow less than they otherwise would have, slightly increasing DRK's damage at 74-79. The alternative would have you suffering from potency loss for 5 levels more. Unless your level 80 damage increased more than other tanks', at worst you're now a bit overpowered leading up to level 80.

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What matters is tight parity (both ST and AoE) at level caps and as near to that as would be worth the effort between level caps. If you're wondering why we got 3 single-target traits across 81-90, look no further than Salt and Darkness and Shadowbringer, both 50% AoEs with significant, even if not huge, potency per minute.

Note that PLD saw minimal ST dps increases from traits, and likewise 50% AoEs across its new skills. WAR's new attack was only a 30% AoE and an AoE spender choice (shared cooldown) that requires 3 targets to pull ahead while all traits were likewise ST. GNB? Roughly the same thing. ST traits, and a 20% AoE.

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Originally Posted by RefundEndwalker

You can tell these hacks didn't have any plan to make things better when they stealth nerfed Living Shadow's potency for the SOLE PURPOSE of putting it back to its original potency 8 levels later, and pretend it's new. It's like if your dad took your playstation out of your room, boxed it and gave it to you as a christmas present a year later. It's either maliciousness or incompetence, and either option should be met with scorn, not the praise that's being dumped on it by the zealous idiots who pretend Square can do no wrong.

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No joke. My parents gave me a cd of Peter, Paul and Mary back in the day. As soon as I opened it they took it and returned with a cdrw. My parents and, now SQEX, the indian givers.