Meteion vs WoW's The Jailer (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Dagget

Normally, it is poor writing to add in a plot element that was not in any way known earlier in a long story mystery, but in Endwalker we have Meteion introduced for the 1st time as the core trouble behind the End of Days. Over in WoWland we have The Jailer introduced for the 1st time as the puppeteer behind most everything that happened before.

So far, consensus seems to be no real complaints about Meteion being brought into the narrative while there seems to be a lot of griping about The Jailer being brought in as a plot device in WoW.

Thoughts?

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The Jailer is terrible writing because he was literally retconned into completed storylines.
Another way to put it is that they wrote in the Jailer as the mastermind of masterminds to try and elicit an emotional response from the players who lived through the events the Jailer is supposed to have been responsible for. He would otherwise be of absolutely zero interest to the players if they didn't retcon him as the villain responsible for everything bad.

Blizzard tried to make him out to be the "root cause" of every single bad thing to happen in the warcraft universe.
There was absolutely no hints or mysteries whatsoever at any point in the franchises history that pointed towards a "mastermind behind the mastermind behind the mastermind" that they're trying to portray the Jailer as being.
He was entirely shoehorned in specifically because the Shadowlands needed a big bad and done so badly that the community feel like the older stories are being disrespected.

On Meteion, using spoiler tags just in case you havent finished the MSQ entirely

Meteion works because there has always been a mystery as to what causes the Final Days. We knew only that Zodiark saved the planet from it but didn't defeat the source of it.
We've been getting hints that something isn't right with aether as early as ARR (I didnt play 1.0, sadly, so i have no frame of reference prior to ARR) in which the Scions are investigating a 'thinning of the aether'.
At the time, we are led to believe that the Primals being summoned is what leads to a thinning of the aether. Corroborated by the fact that Primals do in fact drain aether from the land while alive. So we assume that thinning aether indicates a primal summon. And then we find primals have been summoned.
But then we later find out that the aether is still undergoing a thinning event despite no primals being active anywhere. The Scions keep investigating that but can find no cause for it.

Then we get to Endwalker. During which we re-trigger the Final Days and learn one important factoid from Y'shtola, that when a person changes, their aether "crumbles and rots away". Begging the question, if aether is life then how does a creature exist without it?
That question sets up dynamis, of which we get a suggestion of what it might it be. But even before all of that, we have a suggestion of a non aether based emotion based power in the Elpis flower when Hydaelyn ensures that we recieve it in Labyrinthos.

So the comparison between the Jailer and Meteion's inclusion to the story is that there were unsolved mysteries being set up so that discovery of Meteion answers those mysteries, while the Jailer is shoehorned in with a vapid "The Jailer was behiind everything the whole time and was such a perfect strategist that he left absolutely no trace of his existence until now".

Oh and Meteion herself was that which was going to end the universe and we needed to fight against her despair to win, while the Jailer is "hurdur if i get to the thing, i will rule the universe!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dagget

Normally, it is poor writing to add in a plot element that was not in any way known earlier in a long story mystery, but in Endwalker we have Meteion introduced for the 1st time as the core trouble behind the End of Days. Over in WoWland we have The Jailer introduced for the 1st time as the puppeteer behind most everything that happened before.

So far, consensus seems to be no real complaints about Meteion being brought into the narrative while there seems to be a lot of griping about The Jailer being brought in as a plot device in WoW.

Thoughts?

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I previously had thought that you cant really develop and feel invested in a character throughout the course of a single expansion, you just dont have enough time.

But Emet Selch proved me wrong, a character that mostly appeared a bit before shadowbringer and was not only a great character, but because one of my favorite characters in any video game, and I did love his very rational points. So you know, if we were given the option, I would have joined him instantly and burned down all the shards together xd


As for meiteion, I didnt really feel invested or care about her, I disliked the early cutsie behavior so I couldnt possibly get attached and her character was very simple and dumb since she was just a familiar. The fact that she got affected strongly by negative emotion was clearly a hint she might be related to the end of days, at the end, I just wanted to kill her so she stops, not rly emotionally invested in her character.

The jailer on the other hand is beyond a joke, it is the typical villain that goes around saying "your soul shall be mine", has barely any backstory and was introduced only to be killed in the same expansion, the writing is simply atrocious in WoW at this point and the ever changing lore, history and characters mean an incredibly unstable universe that nobody can be invested in anymore and it cant be salvaged at this point imo

My problem with the story is, that they also introduced this new universal Power (forgot the name) out of nowhere and it is the cause of all evil.

It would have been nice to have it hinted somewhere before. Like, reading/ hearing about something else beside aether that has to exist in the universe.
It could have been done in the omega raids, or mentioned by Raha because he had the allag knowledge.

Speaking of universal powers...

Dynamis isn't intrinsically evil, any more than Aether is intrinsically good. It's just a reflection of what you have in your soul. Meteion just so happened to absorb a lot of the ambient despair from the multitude of dying civilizations that she encountered. This is not intrinsically any different than the Elpis blooms that you bring forth as the spirit of hope (this expansion really doubled down on Greek philosophy).

Most fantasy worlds don't emerge fully formed from their creators' brains. They evolve over time. This is even more true in a game that is essentially a love letter to the rest of the series. Characters or places are pulled from the aether as it were as homages, and then are made to fit in with the broader continuity of the story over time. Dynamis happens to be a reference to FFXI, and its presence here shouldn't be any more surprising than Omega and Shinryu showing up to fight each other.

I think that it's a fantastic addition to the game's lore. There are plenty of players who are now starting to re-evaluate what their chosen jobs actually are doing the context of this new energy system, simply because Aether is too cold and dispassionate of a concept to explain what they do. Or sometimes you walk the line between both, as DRK does with the Flame in the Abyss.

I think that it's unreasonable to expect to have all of the pieces of the puzzle available in advance. The first challenge that you're tasked with is finding out what caused the Final Days. As it stands, the voice that you hear in your head during your vision after obliterating Zodiark narrows down the possibilities significantly. I think that if you had encountered Meteion previously, there wouldn't be a mystery at all.

Learning new things about the world is an important part of travelling.

Others have pointed out that dynamis as a concept has existed before in other storylines of the game, notably in the dancer storyline. Aetherial currents are not new (ask any fishers.) Aether corruption is not new (that goes back to ARR.) Other forces besides aether are not wholly new, but were not understood or ever given a name.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Others have pointed out that dynamis as a concept has existed before in other storylines of the game, notably in the dancer storyline. Aetherial currents are not new (ask any fishers.) Aether corruption is not new (that goes back to ARR.) Other forces besides aether are not wholly new, but were not understood or ever given a name.

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Ohh, you are right.
Then with this I have nothing more to complain about the story.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Others have pointed out that dynamis as a concept has existed before in other storylines of the game, notably in the dancer storyline.

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the worst thing about not having new job quests is we arent able to explore jobs like drk or war through the lense of what we now know about dynamis ;n;

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Speaking of universal powers...

Dynamis isn't intrinsically evil, any more than Aether is intrinsically good. It's just a reflection of what you have in your soul. Meteion just so happened to absorb a lot of the ambient despair from the multitude of dying civilizations that she encountered. This is not intrinsically any different than the Elpis blooms that you bring forth as the spirit of hope (this expansion really doubled down on Greek philosophy).

Most fantasy worlds don't emerge fully formed from their creators' brains. They evolve over time. This is even more true in a game that is essentially a love letter to the rest of the series. Characters or places are pulled from the aether as it were as homages, and then are made to fit in with the broader continuity of the story over time. Dynamis happens to be a reference to FFXI, and its presence here shouldn't be any more surprising than Omega and Shinryu showing up to fight each other.

I think that it's a fantastic addition to the game's lore. There are plenty of players who are now starting to re-evaluate what their chosen jobs actually are doing the context of this new energy system, simply because Aether is too cold and dispassionate of a concept to explain what they do. Or sometimes you walk the line between both, as DRK does with the Flame in the Abyss.

I think that it's unreasonable to expect to have all of the pieces of the puzzle available in advance. The first challenge that you're tasked with is finding out what caused the Final Days. As it stands, the voice that you hear in your head during your vision after obliterating Zodiark narrows down the possibilities significantly. I think that if you had encountered Meteion previously, there wouldn't be a mystery at all.

Learning new things about the world is an important part of travelling.

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Perfectly put.

Also, if I may add, Yoshida reiterates from times to times in his interviews that he doesn't like the plot or elements of the story to become overly complex that they start to be difficult to understand. He often points that if fans and players alike can tell and remember the story in a straightforward and fairly simple, direct manner, then this is exactly what he is aiming for.

And it seems the concept of Dynamis adds in such regard. Aether was starting to become contrived, with various types, memory aether, soul aether, and even more like celestial aether, etc... so, from this perspective it's understandable why the producers and writing team did prefer to come up with a new, fairly simple and direct concept (as Yoshida likes) to be the basis for development further ahead, instead of yet again create another ramification of aether definition. It also seems something fresh, new and it adds to our curiosity about what are the possibilities and how much can we achieve, how far can we reach, with this new attribute.

Ranaa actually has new dialogue talking about how you went to Thavnair. Unfortunate that she doesn't have anything to say on the similarities between the Totentanz and Final Days.

Meterion was an okay character but inappropriate as the final antagonist. She was introduced too late. Endwalker's ending was a rehash of ShB's ending with the heroes pursuing the villain to their inaccessible hideout (final zone) and then talking to the shades of a long dead civilization, and then going through a final dungeon that depicts said civilization's end as the bad guy narrates, and then the heroes try reasoning with the villain and are knocked out one by one... except that Meterion was not endowed with a charismatic voice actor like Emet was, and fails to carry climax. Meterion will be forgotten. The final antagonist should have been simply Zenos or Zodiark, as they had a presence throughout the story and are more interesting.

The Jailer in WoW is also a forgettable character like Meterion, but the Jailer is way more offensive because he comes along with a dozen awful, nonsensical retcons (if the Dreadlords were serving him all along, then why were the Dreadlords fighting against the Lich King if the LK was supposed to be another agent of the Jailer?)