Dual purpse classes/jobs

Honestly with the amount of jobs/classes there are you can't possibly expect each of them to fill only one role... It's just not physically possible unless you only have something like 4/5 classes (and no one would want that).

I don't think the current team have been absolutely spot-on as far as balance goes but I think they've done a decent job so far (a part from the WAR/PLD debacle).

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I see no problem with there being some hybrid like classes/jobs. It's just give options for those that level it.
Every MMO has its Hybrid classes and WAR is one for this game. Making it strictly DD or Tank has never fit the theme of the job to me.

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Jobs have been around for all of 3 minutes ... Never fit a theme is a little premature.

Anyway, yes they all do have hybrid jobs/classes, in this as per the devs, again unless I misunderstood:
Classes are balanced all arounders capable of doing many things well. Jobs are specialists derived from those classes that excel in a single thing.

Again though, I never said take away WARs or any other jobs dual functionalness(that's not a word ... yet) but don't leave some w/ that kind of solid ass strength/capability while others are left out in the cold w/ only a single skill set.

I'm sorry but MNK has a single role, they have an "Oh shit" ability in Taunt but that doesn't make them dual purpose since it lasts all of 4 seconds. Just like DRG doesn't serve a second function.

I will say people have made some great points here. Most of the jobs have a secondary purpose, and they are well balanced, just underutilized in current content. So perhaps the real problem here is:
1) I mainly play PLD(currently busted), DRG & MNK both of which are single purpose.
2) Because of that I don't tend to see the uses of other jobs so much.
3) WAR(my next 50) is OP to the point of toppling the scales even amongst the other dual-purpose jobs.
Since PLD and WAR will receive adjustments, and DRG for that matter, perhaps they'll add some more form/function to MNK and DRG to make them more useful than just providing pure DPS which remains outshone by other jobs that bring more than just DPS to the table.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Classes are balanced all-arounders capable of doing many things well. Jobs are specialists derived from those classes that excel in a single thing.

Again though, I never said take away WARs or any other jobs dual functionalness(that's not a word ... yet) but don't leave some w/ that kind of solid ass strength/capability while others are left out in the cold w/ only a single skill set.

I'm sorry but MNK has a single role, they have an "Oh shit" ability in Taunt but that doesn't make them dual purpose since it lasts all of 4 seconds. Just like DRG doesn't serve a second function.

I will say people have made some great points here. Most of the jobs have a secondary purpose, and they are well balanced, just underutilized in current content. So perhaps the real problem here is:
1) I mainly play PLD(currently busted), DRG & MNK both of which are single purpose.
2) Because of that I don't tend to see the uses of other jobs so much.
3) WAR(my next 50) is OP to the point of toppling the scales even amongst the other dual-purpose jobs.
Since PLD and WAR will receive adjustments, and DRG for that matter, perhaps they'll add some more form/function to MNK and DRG to make them more useful than just providing pure DPS which remains outshone by other jobs that bring more than just DPS to the table.

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I'm going to toss in my two cents here and hope they drop into a relevant part of the wishing pond.

First off, I think that if a theme should exist for a class, it will almost certainly end up being something that should exist regardless of role. In many ways, a Warrior being a fully capable tank and fully capable Damage Dealer does not strike a warning bell for me (it instead goes off simply due to the ease of equal input for greater output among dual-purpose classes). It fits the idea of a large-weaponed, heavily-armored badass.

What makes the situation crappy is that classes like Dragoon don't capitalize enough on a distinct playstyle (in this case likely mobility, fast-dropping small-mob kills, and high emergency deployability [my coined word of the day]). And worse: non-directly damage-related abilities play a large enough part in fight strategy to make that distinct playstyle nearly as useful as it should be.

Sorry to bring up WoW into this--I can assure you that I quit long ago for a reason--but one of my favorite things about that game was being able to do anything other people told me I couldn't because it wasn't a "class function", only to find myself feeling the "way" of the class much more deeply when stepping outside those niche-boundaries.

Is a rant--->[I could kite with a warrior. I could no-tank and no-heal certain heroics with a trusty set of hunters. I could *tank* with a sub rogue (except on boss fights). All it took was a group who didn't treat the roles as the ends of group strategy, and instead as a means to achieve a strategy (in really, really fun way).]

It's my hope that every class will be capable of fulfilling any function to a certain extent, but each in their own unique way, taking advantage of a different part of the game's fundamentals. Especially with any slight reforms to threat generation, you could see cases of a Dragoon bursting a boss purposely to the point of pulling threat only to jump away, leading the boss into friendly-firing incoming new mobs with a ranged attack when targeting the Dragoon. Paladins and Warriors would differ in more than just their effective defense compromised with effective threat or the like. Monks would have their own diverse uses, perhaps pulling strings of attacks off a wounded tank only to dodge them into the floor, that stem from the same sort of subtle and fundamental job philosophies that creates every other niche of the job.

Sorry, I guess this is a case of "give a tired, opinionated man a soda, and..." but in summary, rather than have niches locked off in the name of diversity, I'd rather see diversity give rise to actual, multi-usable job feels. In the meantime just some common sense balancing (just one tiny patch, please) on Warriors would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Again though, I never said take away WARs or any other jobs dual functionalness(that's not a word ... yet) but don't leave some w/ that kind of solid ass strength/capability while others are left out in the cold w/ only a single skill set.

I'm sorry but MNK has a single role, they have an "Oh shit" ability in Taunt but that doesn't make them dual purpose since it lasts all of 4 seconds. Just like DRG doesn't serve a second function.

I will say people have made some great points here. Most of the jobs have a secondary purpose, and they are well balanced, just underutilized in current content. So perhaps the real problem here is:
1) I mainly play PLD(currently busted), DRG & MNK both of which are single purpose.
2) Because of that I don't tend to see the uses of other jobs so much.
3) WAR(my next 50) is OP to the point of toppling the scales even amongst the other dual-purpose jobs.
Since PLD and WAR will receive adjustments, and DRG for that matter, perhaps they'll add some more form/function to MNK and DRG to make them more useful than just providing pure DPS which remains outshone by other jobs that bring more than just DPS to the table.

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Don't go down this route, please. This is basically the hybrid vs pure argument. Pures (classes with one possible role) complain that hybrids put them out of jobs if they perform on an equal level (which has been proven false time and again). Then the hybrids become second-class citizens that HAVE to heal or tank, and then everyone's miserable. Trust me, I've been there before.

put it like this if you have hybird people will only want hybrid in there party. "why have a single role when a dual role can fight and heal vs a role that can do only 1 thing". right now the game is balenced with a broken paladin. tank should tank, a DD should kill stuff, and a healer should keep people alive.

already happened in FFXI where RDM was the only mage and nothing but DD's in a party. excluding most of the 15+ other jobs.

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Originally Posted by indira

already happened in FFXI where RDM was the only mage and nothing but DD's in a party. excluding most of the 15+ other jobs.

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The reason that happened was because the devs made the mistake of giving RDM MP longevity and not WHM. If WHM had been given Refresh and a model designed around MP longevity, it would have easily been the healer of choice. It had absolutely nothing to do with RDM being a hybrid and everything to do with Refresh, Haste and Cure IV.

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The reason that happened was because the devs made the mistake of giving RDM MP longevity and not WHM. If WHM had been given Refresh and a model designed around MP longevity, it would have easily been the healer of choice. It had absolutely nothing to do with RDM being a hybrid and everything to do with Refresh, Haste and Cure IV.

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point is people will still do it. nomatter what.

I think SE should make a trait that using berserk only on warrior gives a double attack effect. Also remove the attack power on rampage.

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Originally Posted by indira

point is people will still do it. nomatter what.

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Only for as long as the game's mechanics facilitate it. It's one of those things where the developers HAVE to step in an correct. I hope they at the least learned that from FFXI.

I have no desire to tank as a Blm. I want a person who is a Paldin to excel at it tradtionally, and a war should be able to, but not be a deep DD. THat's the mages job. It seems it going to go tradtional in 2.0, which is good.

Sure I out tanked Paldins on FFXI as a Dancer. It just wasn't feeling right.

As a BLm I expect ot kick ass in damage above all others, but to be smacked down fast if I get hit.