Shadowbringers Healer Role: Complaints, Feedback, and Suggestions

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Indeed, I regret old AST deck.
But for me, being busy with the current iteration of AST is what make it appealing to me (because i feel so bored on WHM and SCH)

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I don't disagree that feeling busy can make healing in the game more fun, I just don't believe that feeling busy is enough -- all that busy-ness needs to have an impact, especially if we're spending significant time on it. Either add something to make the "all cards are balance" more impactful, or add variety to make them feel like true utility, but either way, personal DPS needs to involve more than 2 buttons for all heal jobs not just astro.

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

I don't disagree that feeling busy can make healing in the game more fun, I just don't believe that feeling busy is enough -- all that busy-ness needs to have an impact, especially if we're spending significant time on it. Either add something to make the "all cards are balance" more impactful, or add variety to make them feel like true utility, but either way, personal DPS needs to involve more than 2 buttons for all heal jobs not just astro.

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If they need to add more dps abilities then they need to remove healing abilities. That’s just not logic. They won’t do that. Healers heal and yes I agree with you that there should be more things to make healing feel impactful but button bloat will become issues especially for controller players. Healers shouldn’t have dps rotations. Now I’m all for what they did with Whm. Use healing spells to build up to an ultimate attack like the blood Lily. I find it amazing. I think all healers should have a mechanic like that.

Honestly this is all kinda madness. The only reason why scholar was so loved is because they were mostly dps with a healing fairy attached. They could apply 2-3 dots and spread them then add another dot with miasma 2. Then they would just spam their 1 aoe and their fairy could take care of all the healing mostly. Whm’s only had an additional spell of aero 3. That was a dot to all mobs. Astro never had crazy dps anyway because their cards could aoe. Honestly SE didn’t really take much from whm and Astro. Only sch got butchered. So they won’t give healers more dps abilities sadly. We just need to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

If they need to add more dps abilities then they need to remove healing abilities. That’s just not logic. They won’t do that. Healers heal and yes I agree with you that there should be more things to make healing feel impactful but button bloat will become issues especially for controller players. Healers shouldn’t have dps rotations.

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healing kits are already oversaturated. the fact that our old kits were enough to clear two ultimates at lv 70 should've been enough, but no, instead they gave all the healers MORE useless heals that they dont need. i seriously cant imagine what new healing skills we can get next expansion when in This expansion we've already gotten old deleted skills but with a new coat of paint (largesse -> temperance/neutral sect, rouse -> summon seraph)

not to mention that healers like scholar used to have dps rotations and not only were they fine, but it was the reason players loved the job. "healers shouldn't have dps rotations"? more like "healers shouldn't be pressing the same 2 buttons ad nauseam from lv 4 until lv 80"

if you want to remove button bloat (which is only kind of an issue for scholar and even then not really), then the devs need to make smarter decisions with skills. there's a mod that changes fey blessing into consolation when you summon seraph. why isnt that in the game since the beginning?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

healing kits are already oversaturated. the fact that our old kits were enough to clear two ultimates at lv 70 should've been enough, but no, instead they gave all the healers MORE useless heals that they dont need. i seriously cant imagine what new healing skills we can get next expansion when in This expansion we've already gotten old deleted skills but with a new coat of paint (largesse -> temperance/neutral sect, rouse -> summon seraph)

not to mention that healers like scholar used to have dps rotations and not only were they fine, but it was the reason players loved the job. "healers shouldn't have dps rotations"? more like "healers shouldn't be pressing the same 2 buttons ad nauseam from lv 4 until lv 80"

if you want to remove button bloat (which is only kind of an issue for scholar and even then not really), then the devs need to make smarter decisions with skills. there's a mod that changes fey blessing into consolation when you summon seraph. why isnt that in the game since the beginning?

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All this doesn’t really matter. Scholar was ridiculously overpowered and they took it down. Scholars were barely healing to be honest. They mostly left 90% of the healing to their fairy, Whm or Astro partner which wasn’t fair. SE picked up on this and put a stop to it fast. Am I happy about pressing 2 buttons over and over? No, but I do think it brings healers down to know their role. Give a healer a dps rotation and I guarantee you, you will read more complains from dps and tanks that healers aren’t healing and doing their job. So no I’m not an advocate for more dps skills that will give healers a reason to stop healing or only heal with ogcds or at all for that matter and focus on their dps rotation. No thank you.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

If they need to add more dps abilities then they need to remove healing abilities. That’s just not logic. They won’t do that. Healers heal and yes I agree with you that there should be more things to make healing feel impactful but button bloat will become issues especially for controller players. Healers shouldn’t have dps rotations. Now I’m all for what they did with Whm. Use healing spells to build up to an ultimate attack like the blood Lily. I find it amazing. I think all healers should have a mechanic like that.

Honestly this is all kinda madness. The only reason why scholar was so loved is because they were mostly dps with a healing fairy attached. They could apply 2-3 dots and spread them then add another dot with miasma 2. Then they would just spam their 1 aoe and their fairy could take care of all the healing mostly. Whm’s only had an additional spell of aero 3. That was a dot to all mobs. Astro never had crazy dps anyway because their cards could aoe. Honestly SE didn’t really take much from whm and Astro. Only sch got butchered. So they won’t give healers more dps abilities sadly. We just need to deal with it.

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Healers have a myriad of heals that are so similiar that in most situations, it doesn't even matter which one you use from a healing standpoint.
Asp. Helios, COpp, Star and CU for AST; Horo has a noticably lower potency but is still pretty much doing the same. It doesn't matter which one you use, all of them achieve roughly the same for everyone in range. They only require 4 seperate buttons because 3 have a cooldown and 1 directly competes with dps skills and that only comes into play when actively going for more dps. Consolation, Succor and Fey Blessing are also extremely similiar and with how spread out raidwides are, WD/ SS are used in pretty much the same way. WHM is currently the only healer with a more reasonable ratio of healing/ dps skills although they struggle with lack of mobility and clipping.
The DPS meta isn't going away. The ratio of heal vs dps buttons should reflect that but instead the hotbars are bursting with an unneccessary amount of skills that only differ from each other through name and animation while that which takes up most of your time is done by smashing the same 2 buttons over and over.
By pruning heal skills you can add active resource management, proper dps rotations and more short-time self buffs. Something that will feel much more interesting than aoe heal no 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Quantity of heal skills alone doesn't make a healer a healer.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Give a healer a dps rotation and I guarantee you, you will read more complains from dps and tanks that healers aren’t healing and doing their job. So no I’m not an advocate for more dps skills that will give healers a reason to stop healing or only heal with ogcds or at all for that matter and focus on their dps rotation. No thank you.

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We already had that with the added difficulty of Cleric Stance. Somehow Eorzea is still standing.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

So no I’m not an advocate for more dps skills that will give healers a reason to stop healing or only heal with ogcds or at all for that matter and focus on their dps rotation. No thank you.

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are you living under a rock? healers ALREADY barely heal, and ALREADY only use ogcds. if anything the oversaturation of healing skills exacerbated the problem. why should i ever cast aspected helios when i have celestial opposition do the exact same on a super short cooldown


also "scholars left the healing to their fairy" makes absolutely no sense. scholars control the fairy. scholar was usually the healer that did more hps in stormblood as well. just because a healer isnt spamming succor or physick doesn't mean they're not healing


all the dps changes have done is make peoole quit healing because it became boring, healers still play the same otherwise now as they did in stormblood, and by that i mean "heal everything with ogcds". not to mention that bringing the entire ship down and making healers boring because some players sucked and couldnt heal is a really dumb decision as well (guess what! those players STILL cant heal!)

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Originally Posted by QooEr

are you living under a rock? healers ALREADY barely heal, and ALREADY only use ogcds. if anything the oversaturation of healing skills exacerbated the problem. why should i ever cast aspected helios when i have celestial opposition do the exact same on a super short cooldown


also "scholars left the healing to their fairy" makes absolutely no sense. scholars control the fairy. scholar was usually the healer that did more hps in stormblood as well. just because a healer isnt spamming succor or physick doesn't mean they're not healing


all the dps changes have done is make peoole quit healing because it became boring, healers still play the same otherwise now as they did in stormblood, and by that i mean "heal everything with ogcds". not to mention that bringing the entire ship down and making healers boring because some players sucked and couldnt heal is a really dumb decision as well (guess what! those players STILL cant heal!)

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Am I living under a rock? No but thanks for asking. Anyway, all I’m saying is Sch was overpowered. Only using whispering dawn is barely healing. Which allot of people who played scholar did. Also this was back when embrace was very op as well. They barely casted adlo or succor. Yoshi P even acknowledged that scholars were leaving most of the healing to whm and Astro so let’s not act like that didn’t exist.

And who said anything about spamming gcd heals? I don’t think I mentioned that. I’m not blind that healers have ogcds. I’m talking about the healers who only heal with ogcds and if they don’t have one ready then the heck with it.

So let me get this straight. You want a dps rotation for healer so you’re not just spamming one button because that’s boring? I see. So Whm and Sch were not boring in ARR or in HW when Astro joined or in SB. It’s only now in SHB they are boring? They didn’t have dps rotations before either.

So I’m asking you to educate me on what is different now than it was back then. Give me examples from all perspectives. Whm, Sch and Astro. I only see scholar as the one that truly had a slight dps rotation and it was butchered. So educate me please. I’m asking.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Am I living under a rock? No but thanks for asking. Anyway, all I’m saying is Sch was overpowered. Only using whispering dawn is barely healing. Which allot of people who played scholar did. Also this was back when embrace was very op as well.

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The general complaint among scholar mains isnt about scholar being overpowered, its about how it lost its damage rotation. its not an issue of numbers but of gameplay. maybe nerfing the fairy was justified, but getting rid of miasma, miasma 2, shadowflare, bane and selene's unique actions wasnt.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

They barely casted adlo or succor.

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A good scholar still rarely if ever casts adlo or succor.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Yoshi P even acknowledged that scholars were leaving most of the healing to whm and Astro so let’s not act like that didn’t exist.

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Ultimately SE is the one with the most data, but thats questionable when you see things like this. https://prnt.sc/10pcyqv
Seeing raw HPS statistics is kind of meaningless on its own, but when most runs with best combined healer look about even, i dont really know where that came from. http://prntscr.com/10pd0w8

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

And who said anything about spamming gcd heals? I don’t think I mentioned that. I’m not blind that healers have ogcds. I’m talking about the healers who only heal with ogcds and if they don’t have one ready then the heck with it.

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Thats literally how all healers play at the moment. In fact every extreme trial and savage fight this expansion except for 11s and 12s can be healed without either healer using a single gcd heal. this was also a thing during stormblood. nothing changed in that regard

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

So let me get this straight. You want a dps rotation for healer so you’re not just spamming one button because that’s boring? I see. So Whm and Sch were not boring in ARR or in HW when Astro joined or in SB. It’s only now in SHB they are boring? They didn’t have dps rotations before either. So I’m asking you to educate me on what is different now than it was back then. Give me examples from all perspectives. Whm, Sch and Astro. I only see scholar as the one that truly had a slight dps rotation and it was butchered. So educate me please. I’m asking.

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Maybe they didnt have "rotations" but they all had more DoTs to keep track of. Even that state of affairs is better than what we have now:
Heavensward:
- WHM has assize, POM, aero 1, aero 2, aero 3, cleric stance dancing
- SCH has bio, bio ii, miasma, miasma ii, shadowflare, cross classed aero, cleric stance dancing
- AST has combust ii, combust, cross classed aero, cleric stance dancing
SB
- WHM has assize, POM, aero2 and aero 3, cleric stance as a boring cooldown
- SCH has bio ii, miasma, miasma ii, shadowflare, cleric stance as a boring cooldown
- AST has combust ii, cleric stance as a boring cooldown
ShB
- Whm has assize, POM, Dia
- Sch has biolysis
- AST has combust iii

Healers didnt have full fledged dps rotations, sure, but they at least had several dots to keep track of. They keep removing more and more skills until eventually we'll just have stone/broil/malefic. You can have the opinion you want to have about cleric stance, but i at least liked stance dancing as you needed to be smart about when to weave your heals to get the most dps uptime.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

Healers didnt have full fledged dps rotations, sure, but they at least had several dots to keep track of. They keep removing more and more skills until eventually we'll just have stone/broil/malefic. You can have the opinion you want to have about cleric stance, but i at least liked stance dancing as you needed to be smart about when to weave your heals to get the most dps uptime.

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Not to mention the dots had different and shorter durations than now. Aero III had the longest duration at 24s but also long cast time (3s iirc?) while Aero I doubled as a movement/ weaving tool prior to the Aero II change.
Even something as small as having multiple dots with different durations and sometimes additional purpose already added a lot of variety to the gameplay while a single streamlined 30s dot is not only easier to keep up, it also naturally aligns with most cooldowns because they're on a 30s * x timer. And stance dancing with less oGCDs made overall for a fairly nice gameplay.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

All this doesn’t really matter. Scholar was ridiculously overpowered and they took it down. Scholars were barely healing to be honest. They mostly left 90% of the healing to their fairy, Whm or Astro partner which wasn’t fair. SE picked up on this and put a stop to it fast. Am I happy about pressing 2 buttons over and over? No, but I do think it brings healers down to know their role. Give a healer a dps rotation and I guarantee you, you will read more complains from dps and tanks that healers aren’t healing and doing their job. So no I’m not an advocate for more dps skills that will give healers a reason to stop healing or only heal with ogcds or at all for that matter and focus on their dps rotation. No thank you.

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1- are no metrics to substantiate that tired myth of scholars barely healing, in fact there is evidence to the contrary should someone search it out
2- were the scholar changes required to "bring healers down to know their role? are you saying that healers uppity in some way? If so , smh OK, healers support their groups but they are not subservient to anyone.

3- Healers cannot have a DPS rotation? oh really? why not? I haven't ever seen anyone bring in a complex rotation like SMN, that doesn't mean that healers cannot have more DPS options that they do currently - after all tanks do.