Couldn't they just have removed Redraw?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

your version of Spire could potentially be detrimental. shortening the duration of certain debuffs in refulgence for example would cause more harm then good.

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I mean... yes? And it would be a disastrous mistake to use it when Doom mechanics are in play. But there's plenty of things you can do in-game now that are detrimental uses of theoretically-beneficial actions; I don't actually think that part's necessarily a flaw, per se. And it adds an element of "is this the right time to play this" to things.

However, I know the examples were impractical and wildly unbalanced in general, and even said as much in the post listing them; they were not "these are exactly what the cards should be" but rather off-the-cuff examples of "cards could have a variety of different effects—things like these—and still have a damage increase to ensure no one card is immediately the One True Card like Balance was, and you could even probably come up with a way to restore some time manipulation stuff" which were cooked up in five minutes between meetings at work.

Any actual replacement card effects would need a lot more time, effort, and thought than five minutes of forum post put into their design. ;)

But I do still stand by the general gist, that you could give the cards some variety where different effects would be situationally more or less useful, and where cards that could be extremely useful in one spot might even be downright hazardous in another.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except now it’s very possible to get three sun seals in a row when you need a crescent moon. So I don’t see much difference there.

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This is what bothers me. We are still fishing. And we have less choices than before. (Royal Road, Spread, Lord/Lady, Redraw compared to just Redraw and Lord/Lady) AND the Lore is now all screwed up. They didn't accomplish their goals they set out on for the rework.

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

This is what bothers me. We are still fishing. And we have less choices than before. (Royal Road, Spread, Lord/Lady, Redraw compared to just Redraw and Lord/Lady) AND the Lore is now all screwed up. They didn't accomplish their goals they set out on for the rework.

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Dealing with the same crap, except now it takes way more effort to get even less out of the system. I'm looking forward to the Sleeve Draw rework, since it's such an absurd APM tax to use on a healer job. If they want to introduce increased APM requirements, there should be an increase in anything desirable whatsoever to compensate... not a decrease...


I don't expect Sleeve Draw's APM problem to get worse, but, then again, I've been disappointed before. Anxious, but a little optimistic.


edit: On-topic thoughts... I think it could work to adjust the system to exclude redraws, but I'd rather they have expanded on Spread by stealing another idea from Tetris: a "Next" preview that forces your draws to obey Redraw rules (because there's never any reason why I need three balances in a row.)

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

This is what bothers me. We are still fishing. And we have less choices than before.

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The problem is the dependency on that one card being one of the reasons why people fished for it. It could shave off literal minutes off the encounter time and even skip several mechanics (i.e. Zurvan’s Soar) if the Ast was lucky with Spread Balance. Card choice doesn’t matter when one specific card combination lets players do stuff like that, because that’ll be the combination everyone wants.

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

AND the Lore is now all screwed up. They didn't accomplish their goals they set out on for the rework.

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Probably the Lore is one thing I wish they’d fix too lol.

Though, I do have to disagree with the second point. The difference between being lucky with Balance and just never pulling one is astronomical especially in harder content. The new system makes it somewhat consistent and even if the Ast is unlucky, you can expect about the same amount of gains every pull. I think that’s what they were trying to mitigate with the new system. It’s not perfect and needs a lot of QoL, but it serves its purpose just fine.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

a "Next" preview that forces your draws to obey Redraw rules

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I’ve always wanted the ability to see upcoming cards since Heavensward. Would’ve helped immensely in planning what to do with cards if you could see three steps ahead. Kinda like the Expert Crafting; it would’ve been amazing to see the condition three steps ahead. :O

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Unfortunately, now you fish for Seals to get three different ones. Nothing has really changed in terms of that. Some of the people who defend the new system with the argument of RNG was mitigated is mistaken. The RNG is still there—it’s just moved.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it is mitigated.

Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

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This is not a direct response to you two but I'm using it as an example for a reminder, because it seems like a lot of people forgot something about the old system.
Back in 4.0, upon redrawing, the next card would automatically be different from the one you were holding.

Just that.
We lost it.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Back in 4.0, upon redrawing, the next card would automatically be different from the one you were holding.

Just that.
We lost it.

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Redraw still works like that though? It still draws a different arcanum and the tooltip says the same thing. :o

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Redraw still works like that though? It still draws a different arcanum and the tooltip says the same thing. :o

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It does, to an extent. If you only care about the seals, it absolutely does not. You can get balance, then bole and both would be the sun seal. which makes the redraw good if you wanted to give it to a ranged player, but if you were fishing for a different seal the redraw wasn't helpful.

It's like, they wanted less fishing so they gave us two things to fish for I just can't lol.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

It does, to an extent. If you only care about the seals, it absolutely does not. You can get balance, then bole and both would be the sun seal. which makes the redraw good if you wanted to give it to a ranged player, but if you were fishing for a different seal the redraw wasn't helpful.

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i guess it generally depends. In a light party or a full party with a non-standard composition, it’s usually better to throw out cards on the player doing the most damage (check the enmity gauge for DPS players) regardless of card type, and to sync Divination with other raid buffs even if the potency is lower. Holding onto cards is also something to consider because you don’t actually need to use the card the moment you draw it (15 seconds buff duration, 30 second Draw cooldown). The current card system really only works satisfyingly at a level where players coordinate team compositions, which is probably its biggest flaw.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

It's like, they wanted less fishing so they gave us two things to fish for I just can't lol.

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I personally don’t think they were trying to get people to fish for cards less. More than likely it’s just the devs trying to make it more consistent. It’s much easier to balance things out when the expected damage gain is consistent. The cases where they have to balance around the possibility of an Ast throwing out five Spread Balances in a row sounds like a nightmare to me lol.

The current card system isn’t satisfying to play with, but you’re always guaranteed to get something out of it even if RNG decided to mess it up. I think that’s probably what they were actually going for rather than trying to fix “fishing for balance”. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have implemented the Seals system to begin with. :o

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it is mitigated.

Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

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unless you are the healer in a 4 man dungeon with two melees lol. Undraw is a skill they should have removed since there is no longer a timer to Play a card. Quite literally useless and is not even on my crossbar.

Low key they probably felt fishing for cards was part of the class fantasy but just wanted to limit the amount of variance between cards.