The Lost City of Amdaphor and the Sineaters

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The thing that gets me is the timeline boundaries.

The Source (Patch 3.4) = The First (100 Years Ago)

That's when the sin eaters appeared on the First, so no matter how you mess with the relativity in absolute time passage speed between the two dimensions, which does oscillate, it never goes backwards. Even if time stops whatever inspired Amdapor could not have been a direct glimpse of the Flood of Light on the First 1:1 at the time it was happening.

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You are assuming Sin Eaters never existed before the events on the First. That is a bad assumption. Sin Eaters are the product of Light. Light exists on all shards. Hell, Light likely existed pre-Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Just because there is no lore about it doesn't mean it never happened.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

he doesn't dwell much on what they ARE. They're a different kind of energy - but what does that even mean?

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Cyella describes them as "The Primordial Forces." That'll have to do for now, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

In the meantime, the game seems to be going out of its way to associate Light with Umbral and Darkness with Astral, lately.

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They are associated. They're not synonymous. That's the only bulwark I'm trying to hold, here.

The primordial force of Light pulls elements towards an umbral charge.
Light is primordial, umbral is elemental.
Light is not umbral, umbral is not Light.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If Light and Darkness are meant to be independent from Umbral and Astral, the game hasn't done a great job of demonstrating this!

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Because, as we just said, they're not entirely independent, but separate things that are associated.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The Flood of Darkness wasn't devastating to the Thirteenth because it was suffusing the world with darkness energy. It was bad because it was suffusing the world with Astral polarity. And yet, it is not called the Flood of Astral, but the Flood of Darkness. Too much Darkness is bad, because everything goes Umbral. Ditto in reverse for the Flood of Light.

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The Flood, as in the final result after all of the effects you just listed, is still bad, though, because that's what's blamed directly for changing people who are touched by it.
(Eden may be caught up in a lie about that, though.)

I suspect this is all so difficult to grasp because it's a deep dev-side retcon presented as a player-side misunderstanding which allows the 5.0 story to exist without violating the world 1.0/2.0 built.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

You are assuming Sin Eaters never existed before the events on the First. That is a bad assumption. Sin Eaters are the product of Light. Light exists on all shards. Hell, Light likely existed pre-Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Just because there is no lore about it doesn't mean it never happened.

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I would phrase it another way: I'm not automatically making the assumption that the game's reported lore thus far, that the sin eaters did not appear until denizens of the First were touched by the Flood of Light, is incorrect. It's the only lore that's been reported and there are no conflicts (Aside from Amdapor's shared model use.). That it is actually incorrect is an open possibility, but the less parsimonious interpretation with the least amount support.

The report is that sin eaters are a product of the FLOOD of Light. We do not have evidence that a FLOOD of Light has happened anywhere else, so I don't yet assume that the sin eaters were caused by anything else, or that a Flood has happened anywhere else. Even in Eden they call it "The First Sin Eater" / "The Bringer of the Flood". When I work with theories, I look for gaps and inconsistencies. Only if a gap can be closed or an inconsistency resolved do I assume that the tangible lore we have is wrong. If we assume out of the gate that we can't trust event the hints we have, it becomes a free-for-all where we start our debate by immediately wandering away from the most likely interpretations.

But the possibility is there.

If it's so easy to make voidsent / sin eaters, I feel like with everything we've been through on the Source, it'd have come up, right?
We'd have seen it by now, right?

Allag's voidsent research, Unukalhai's explanations, the journey to Mhach, the delve into Amdapor (which is the source of this conversation, but we have no evidence that they had or knew of anything but golems based on this unresolved "beings from another plane" hint.), the RDM story arc with Lilith...

Hell, how can Black Rose "umbral" people's aether until they die and result in not even the occasional, incidental monstrous transformation, if this is true?

I just need hints in that direction before I start walking that path is all.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Cyella describes them as "The Primordial Forces." That'll have to do for now, I suppose.

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So...

The Force then?

Light Side/Dark Side plothole filler extravaganza?

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I would phrase it another way: I'm not automatically making the assumption that the game's reported lore thus far, that the sin eaters did not appear until denizens of the First were touched by the Flood of Light, is incorrect. It's the only lore that's been reported and there are no conflicts (Aside from Amdapor's shared model use.). That it is actually incorrect is an open possibility, but the less parsimonious interpretation with the least amount support.

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I suppose one of the things that could also be messing with stuff, is the basis of nomenclature.

The First called these beings "Sin Eaters" because they thought that they appeared to punish them for their sins.

However, this only really makes sense in the scenario where your entire world is imploding for what seems like no reason.

If some "Sin Eaters" appeared elsewhere in the universe, say on another shard, without such catastrophic events occuring simultaneously, they might not share the same name. Heck, with such similarities to Voidsent (Hunger for aether, different levels of heirarchy from low level mindless wretches, to high level powerful beings that can bring forth more of their kind) it wouldn't be to hard for someone to actually categorize these beings as a type of "Voidsent" - Especially given many of their more grotesque portrayals.

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Even in Eden they call it "The First Sin Eater" / "The Bringer of the Flood". When I work with theories, I look for gaps and inconsistencies. Only if a gap can be closed or an inconsistency resolved do I assume that the tangible lore we have is wrong.

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If there's inconsistencies you want, then those 2 names create one.

"The Bringer of the Flood" implies that there was no flood, then this entity created (Or otherwise brought it) about.

Yet, if this entity BROUGHT the Flood, then how would it be a Sin Eater if Sin Eaters are only created by the Flood.

Unless the implication is that the thing became the First Sin Eater after bringing about the Flood (Then what was it before, that could bring about a Flood of Light?)

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If it's so easy to make voidsent / sin eaters, I feel like with everything we've been through on the Source, it'd have come up, right?
We'd have seen it by now, right?

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Not necessarily. The Ascians, though they have their faults, the one thing they have been good at is preserving the balance of Light and Dark on the Source. Especially Elidibus (The last remaining Ascian we know of. With Mr Zenos' pal being a mystery factor)

They only shift it when its time for them to create a Rejoining and only enough so that the Rejoining takes place.

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Hell, how can Black Rose "umbral" people's aether until they die and result in not even the occasional, incidental monstrous transformation, if this is true?

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Well, I guess if the answer would lie in the fact that Umbral/Astral and Dark/Light are apparently separate.

So, "Umbraling" someone's aether doesn't necessitate "Darking" it. Where it's the Dark that causes the transformation (Like it seems Light causes the Sin Eater transformation as we note when we get all heck'd up after nomming all the Lightwardens)

An alternative is the fact that "Umbral" stops the aether. If the aether is stopped, then it might not be able to transform, which could be a reason why Voidsent don't appear to ever be "Created" outside of the unique situation on the Thirteenth (While Sin Eaters are readily made en masse on the First, as opposed to summoned into a host body)

I think the easiest way to explain it would be like a compass
------A------
---O--|--X--
L-----|-----D
---X--|--O--
------U------

Where the primordial energy of any element can fall between any range in the graph with the upper left and lower right being "safe" zones that balance out the two opposing energies, and the lower left and upper right being more hostile since the energies build upon each other instead of balancing one another.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The report is that sin eaters are a product of the FLOOD of Light. We do not have evidence that a FLOOD of Light has happened anywhere else, so I don't yet assume that the sin eaters were caused by anything else, or that a Flood has happened anywhere else.

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One problem: "Sin Eaters being a product of the Flood of Light" is only second-hand observational data collected from the denizens of the First. Emet-Selch and Elidibus, in this ENTIRE expansion, constantly preach that both Eorzeans and the citizens of the First 1) Don't have any freaking clue what they are talking about and 2) Can't even remember their own histories correctly.

So we're trying to inject logic and rationale into entire concepts that are founded in flawed and sparse memory. Scholars of the First all were convinced until recently that the Warriors of Light SOLELY started the Flood because they were evil. Being wrong on such a basic concept, we're supposed to accept their wisdom on the first appearance of Sin Eaters? No, sorry. That doesn't gel.

Just because the appearance of Sin Eaters to some early witnesses just happened to correspond to the start of the Flood, does NOT mean Sin Eaters originated from the Flood. That's just terrible logic.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If it's so easy to make voidsent / sin eaters, I feel like with everything we've been through on the Source, it'd have come up, right?
We'd have seen it by now, right?

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With how many revisions, deus ex machinas, and mcguffins SE throws into this game in order to retroactively make sense of the story, I 100% disagree with you.

Bringing this suggestion back:

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

It's also possible that another Shard besides the First is experiencing Umbral corruption, in the same way both the Thirteenth and the world that was rejoined with Bahamut's calamity both were Astral floods. The sin eaters that Amdapor saw could have come from there.

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If another Shard besides the First experienced a Flood of Light, then "Sin Eaters are caused by the FoL" and "Sin Eaters existed before the First was flooded" can both be true. The Ascians have to use some elements to flood Shards more than once, there simply aren't enough elements for each to only have one flood.

Granted this world wouldn't have rejoined yet because there hasn't been a light-aspected Calamity yet, but just because it hasn't rejoined doesn't mean it hasn't experienced a Flood of Light.

Except, we kind of already know what creates Sin Eaters...

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Originally Posted by Alisae

For the most part, living things are composed of aether of various types. But when exposed to [the Flood of Light], their aetheric harmony is shattered, and their natural form breaks down. Then they either perish... or are warped into mindless abominations. Yes, that's how the sin eaters came to be. ... But even that is not the worst of it. The stronger sin eaters can plant Light in us like seeds in soil, corrupting our aether, and triggering the birth of new monstrosities.

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Originally Posted by Urianger

Upon demanding the name of the pole aligned with activity and growth, I was told that as life's myriad colors combine to produce black, the people of the First had called it "Darkness." At this my mind did begin to race. Yet 'twas only when I asked what name had been given to the pole aligned with passivity that mine eyes were opened to the truth. Peace and tranquility being as purest white unmarred by color, I was told, it had been given the name of "Light."

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Sin Eaters are created when a living being is overexposed to Light / umbral energies, which causes their aetherial balance to break down. While the Flood of Light is certainly the most expedient way it could happen, other Sin Eaters can make more by infecting still-living beings with their primordial Light, which will eventually break down their balance. The Flood is the origin of the Sin Eaters we know about, but given as all it takes is overexposure to Light to the point it begins breaking down the body and soul's aetheric balance... it would stand to reason that it is possible to create a Sin Eater some other way.

Again, when / how the Amdapori saw Sin Eaters to base their Winged Lion and Kuribu constructs on... whoooo knows? Maybe they experimented and made a few Sin Eaters themselves... /shrug

Either way, the Winged Lion and Kuribu from the Lost City of Amdapor (Hard) are still just golems made in the likeness of Sin Eaters.

Kind of replying to all of the posts at once, here, but that's all kind of my point. It might be that the assumptions as to how sin eaters and voidsent are made (direct contact with the shifting energies of a world so tilting towards Light or Darkness that it triggers a Flood) is mistaken, and all that is needed is to shift one body's aether that far in a vacuum, regardless of the world's state, regardless of the presence of a Flood. It might be that. I'm merely holding the bulwark of, "The only lore we have so far says the opposite, and if it's true, it's weird there is zero historical precedent." and stressing that Light causes elemental energy to become umbral, while Umbral energies and Light are not identical/synonymous. (That's it.)

It might also be that Urianger and Gaia are right and these are the assumptions the rest of the First has wrong.

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Thancred
Is it a Lightwarden?

Ryne
No, I don't think so. Instead of being filled with Light...it is Light.

Urinager
The first sin eater...
Long have I strived to unravel the mysteries surrounding the Flood of Light. To discover what set that terrible cataclysm in motion.
Every thread led to the same conclusion. The same single point...

Thancred
Or single being...

Urianger
I have reason to believe that the entity we see before us is the first sin eater. The instigator of the Flood─the very foe Minfilia vanquished a century ago.
She gave everything she had...and won.

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It seems very likely that some of the "voidsent" encountered on the Source are what Norvrandt would call Sin Eaters, albeit formed from different processes. The most standout example being the Holy Cow of Eureka Pagos (which looks very similar to Forgiven Cruelty).

Let me tip my hat here

1. We know very little about sineaters other from our observations on the first. We do know the very first sin eater was eden( which i hope to destroy)

2.) Thanks to the mini Lore Bomb in the caster questline, we know that in the fifth astral era the mage cities open rifts to inc their power. One opened a rift to the thirteenth, and nym prop opened on to the first since scholars are heavily based on fairies or fae what have you. So ultimately that leaves amdapor either a opens a rift to the first as well or opens up a rift to some other shard that has sin eaters on it.

Slight tangent here but according to the lore book, Ampdapor started out as the strongest of the mage cities.

3) Them not knowing what a voidsent is prob due to the fact the flood all but annihilating any advanced schools of magic. Though they did start to open rifts.
The first seems heavily dependent on machines again do to the flood but its less advanced than the source assuming ronkan civilization was their apex of magic.

As for the whole time mechanism, it may have been 100yrs ago but time goes faster on the first than the source. So it is possible amdapor saw into the first.