Does anyone actually enjoy guildleves?

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well forgive me for missing YOUR point but isn't this forum about ideas to improve the game, rather than just supporting a system that obviously isn't any fun. The lesser of two evils isn't the best approach when there are third, fourth, and fifth options which are better.

Progression systems

1) Grind your way to endgame

"Boring"

2) Grind your way to endgame with the occasional support from a guildleve to give you a boost

"Still boring"

3) Grind your way to endgame but instead of boring levequests, they have been replaced by levequests with a diverse array of objectives which are actually fun. Furthermore, there is variety so you aren't repeating the same leves over and over for the billionth time..

"Wow that sounds much better"

4) A little bit of grind so you can figure out how to play your class and gain a sense of progression, supplemented with a diverse array of guildleves, sidequests, and general self-motivated content, all of which are fun and exciting and you never feel pressured into doing leves just because it is the most efficient use of your time.

"This sounds good too"

5) No grinding of leves but instead there is grinding of skills and abilities. Progression is in the form of quests (either guildleve or sidequest-based) which give you access to skills and abilities. Endgame starts at day one and you don't have to go through the boring, repetitive intermediate. There is 100% horizontal content where the only factor which influences your completion of the content is your commitment to the game, abilities, cooperation with teammates, and your skill with the combat system.

"This sounds good too but is a matter of taste"

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I will take 3,4 or5 anything other tha1 or2 please....

I enjoyed the eft/raptor grind for my first R50.
I enjoyed the leve grind for my second R50.
Now I hate doing either!

Only reason I still do them is that I am the person that organized the leve static and I feel obligated to continue it. However, I am looking for ways to improve the enjoyment of the leve grind. I am accomplishing this by trying to figure out how to get it to the shortest amount of time possible.

I do like the idea of the leves. Instanced content to rank up! I love the fact that no matter what I am going to get X amount of SP with my group and the only thing that effects our sp is our luck when it comes to how many double leves we got and the luck of the spawns.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

The lesser of two evils isn't the best approach when there are third, fourth, and fifth options which are better.

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I had thought your suggestion of 100% horizontal content was tongue-in-cheek. Apparently not. Why there is and will almost certainly always be a grind in FFXIV is first and foremost that a level system provides a goal for players, a trajectory for their in-game efforts. Not to mention a way to gauge enemies based upon (presumed) player experience and overall strength, thus providing the structure for a balanced combat system.

So let's address your 3, 4, and 5, which you claim are "better" alternatives. I think #3 is the most viable option, unless you're including "objective"-based quests that have jack to do with actually playing as the job. I don't know exactly what you're suggesting there, but if it isn't appropriately related to what a job does (as many campaign ops in FFXI weren't, for example), then it shouldn't be the primary source of SP for a job. If it is, then I welcome your suggestions, but make them in concrete terms, rather than floating some abstract claim that you have a better idea. Let's hear it.

Number 4 - a little bit of a grind is heading a lot down the wrong road, for a number of reasons. First, the grind itself functions as a dual-purpose time sink: it gives the players something to do when they don't have time for some of the more intense content (which admittedly, is yet to come) and it also gives the developers time to, you know, develop while the players continue playing. Now you can disapprove of the forced time sink, but it's the nature of the beast in any RPG, and MMOs certainly not the least. Moreover, if you're talking of these sidequests/leves/"self-motivated content" (a vague-sounding term) as "supplements," then you're acknowledging the necessary primacy of the grind, making it more than just "a little bit." Lastly, you make the assumption that players feel "pressured" into doing leves because it is the most efficient use of time. Be that as it may, players will always look for the most efficient use of time when it comes to advancing their character. If the other activities are supplementary, then they'll not be turned to for the purposes of efficient time use. Nobody is forcing you to do the leves; they're just the grind with more concrete rewards.

Finally, #5, a matter of taste though it may be, seems horrible to me. It is just asking for an elitist mindset. "Oh...your Gladiator doesn't have XYZ weaponskill fully leveled yet? We need it for battle regimen, noob." This suggestion calls to mind the materia system from FFVII introduced on a large scale, and the potential for exclusion based on not having certain abilities up to somebody elses' expectations is enormous. Call me a cynic, but I see that happening right away under this model. And if that wasn't enough of a problem, the idea of "endgame starts at day one" takes whatever hope we had for a carrot to reach for out of the game. But maybe that is just a matter of taste.

Like others have said, the main problem I have with them is they are our only focus right now. Without a solid storyline quest, and no endgame to speak of, the guildleves are just monotonous.

If the other two elements were in place already, then leves would be more acceptable as a grinding solution. Though I do agree, making the leves dungeon-based and/or multi-layered with waypoints and an end boss would improve them significantly. There's so much potential here, it's frustrating to see it go to waste.

I like them when your getting 800+ sp per kill. Its all about the fail leves folks. I earn about 70-80k in a single session no problem. Do that 4x a week and you can hit 50 in no time. Ill be there in one more session myself. Gonna be nice!

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Originally Posted by Kaboushi

there still need to be more kind of leves.

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I agree if there were more variety it would make it more intresting rather that the same leves over and over again

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Originally Posted by Vix

I like them when your getting 800+ sp per kill. Its all about the fail leves folks.

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This points to another huge flaw in the system. They're so unbalanced, we have made a habit of failing them to maximize SP gain.

With nothing to do once we do hit R50, what's the point anyway? So I can do it again on another discipline? Where are the HNMs with epic drops? Where is the story to even care about?

One more thing about leves, they're so repetitive, there's usually two more groups on the same leve my groups is on. So not only do we have to do them over and over, but I see everyone else around me...doing the exact same thing. It's a joke. Are there really that many Fellbite Pieste and Hedgehog Moles waiting to be slaughtered? Really?

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Originally Posted by Ayerc

With nothing to do once we do hit R50, what's the point anyway? So I can do it again on another discipline? Where are the HNMs with epic drops? Where is the story to even care about?

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Your statement is based on a game that has been out for a lengthy amount of time.
XI was pretty bland till RoZ(which was the best Expansion pack of any MMO Ive ever played!).
Each following expansion pack has introduced more stuff to do.

This game is a foundation and nothing more, I dont expect any meaningful content till PS3.
Im getting my to DoM class's to 50, and my two DoH to 50, then I will be quitting till they release an expansion pack.
When they do have an expansion pack, Ill be satisfied that I can jump right in with a good foundation character already built.

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Originally Posted by Vix

Your statement is based on a game that has been out for a lengthy amount of time.
XI was pretty bland till RoZ(which was the best Expansion pack of any MMO Ive ever played!).
Each following expansion pack has introduced more stuff to do.

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Except that it's not. I didn't mention XI...

But to be clear, Vanilla FFXI still had story missions up to R50, which XIV has as well, but not nearly as thought out or meaningful. It also had a subjob quest to complete, advanced classes to unlock, NPC quests, Notorious Monsters, and beastmen camps to explore that tied into those story missions. The journey to 50 cap still meant something. There's nothing about XIV right now that can even hint at providing the same enjoyment.

I quite like guildleves, they're enjoyable when you have your nice little static group to do them on a regular basis. Actually more enjoyable than munching quest after quest solo.

That said, they should be an alternative way of progression to questing, not the only way.