Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

I still think Emet calling Zodiark and Hydaelyn primals was a deliberate mislead by him. Sure, creation magic and primal summoning follow the same principle on paper, but in practice it's like comparing a masterfully crafted piece of artisanship with some cheap bootleg that only barely resembles the original and will set itself on fire if looked at the wrong way. Also if mommy and daddy crystal were primals, then logically ALL of the countless plants and animals originating from creation magic would have to be primals as well, no?
(As for the ascians getting tempered, this might've simply been an unintended side effect of Zodiark stopping the terminus. After all, a big part was the chain reaction of the mass hysteria amongst the ancients creating more monsters, so Zodiark might've simply decided that ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL via tempering as a way to stop that)

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I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

I have my doubts that Emet-Selch is lying about the nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Unlike the other Ascians, he was pretty upfront about delivering uncomfortable truths. We saw it happening as much with his interactions with Varis as we did with his interactions with the Warrior of Light and Scions. He's also the reason why Y'shtola isn't dead, further cementing that his time with the protagonists was genuine. He's also tied to 'truth' as a general concept based on his naming conventions and his behaviour in-game.

as much as i enjoyed Emet i wouldn't say i fully trust everything he said afterall he was tempered by zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

as much as i enjoyed Emet i wouldn't say i fully trust everything he said afterall he was tempered by zodiark.

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Could someone point me to the place in the MSQ where it's made clear the the WoL, Minfilia, Krile etc haven't been tempered by Hydaelyn?

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

What we do have is logical inference. We have no known instances of anyone being tempered by Hydaelyn herself. Some tempered are able to display a degree of self control most seem to have no problem admitting to being tempered. See in particular Emet-Selch and the Anata from Ala Migho council quests.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

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In much the same way as Urianger co-operates with the Ascians during the WoDs arc? After all Unulkhai actually allies himself with us, doesn't he? I mean, when does he ally himself with the Ascians? Elidibus 'rescues' him but we never actually find out the motive for that, and Unulkhai more or less becomes a Scion after the Warring Triad. Or are you maybe thinking he's a double (triple?) agent?

The WoLs from the First were dead, it was their souls that plotted with the Ascians. Does tempering persist after death? When all the people tempered by Ifrit are reborn, are they still his willing slaves?

I mean, there is as much evidence to logically infer that Emet-Selch lied all along and neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn are primals. Actually there's more evidence to infer that than to infer that Hydaelyn is a primal who doesn't temper her followers

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I mean, when does he ally himself with the Ascians? Elidibus 'rescues' him but we never actually find out the motive for that, and Unulkhai more or less becomes a Scion after the Warring Triad. Or are you maybe thinking he's a double (triple?) agent?

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UNUKALHAI:

And as I lay dying, beaten and broken in my failed last stand, 'twas a white-robed Ascian who found my tormented spirit and bore me away to the rift betwixt worlds. Elidibus has been my master ever since.

And as I lay dying, beaten and broken in my failed last stand, 'twas my present master who found my tormented spirit and bore me away to the rift betwixt worlds. 'Twas he who first introduced me to Urianger.

At my mentor's feet did I learn of the nature of reality: of the existence of mirrored worlds and the eternal struggle between Dark and Light.

Sudden and overwhelming superiority for either side will shatter the balance, and the world in question will be returned to the void by a calamity beyond imagining.

As the self-appointed custodian of this balance, my master warned me that the Source─the first of all worlds─slips perilously close to oblivion.

Quest The Last Pillar to Fall... out of the veritable mouths of a babe.
Copied from Garlond Tools. Yes that kid may be fighting with us but it is for the sake of balance he is allied with the Ascians and is subservient to Elidibus. If he decides to defy him it has not been done yet.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

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Regardless of the degree of sophistication involved in their construction, the fact remains that they are not ontologically necessary, non-contingent beings upon which all non-contingent phenomena depends. They are themselves part of the created order. In fact, until contrary evidence emerges, I would hypothesise that these beings are not even capable of the sort of free exercise of creation that the Amaurotine engaged in. They may be extremely powerful, but in every way that matters, they're nought but false gods.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

What we do have is logical inference. We have no known instances of anyone being tempered by Hydaelyn herself. Some tempered are able to display a degree of self control most seem to have no problem admitting to being tempered. See in particular Emet-Selch and the Anata from Ala Migho council quests.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

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I think it most likely that you're correct, but I wouldn't be totally caught off-guard if it turned out that Hydaelyn engages in tempering. After all, we don't know what the subjective experience of being tempered is like. Perhaps when Hydaelyn was speaking to us, this was itself a symptom of tempering. As we know, though, she has grown weaker over the course of the game and no longer speaks to us, which may be a sign that her hold over us, and other WoLs has diminished, and they are able to act in ways contrary to her intent.

On the other hand, tempering has been shown to persist even when a Primal has been vanquished, so this theory probably doesn't hold water.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Could someone point me to the place in the MSQ where it's made clear the the WoL, Minfilia, Krile etc haven't been tempered by Hydaelyn?

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One of the Warriors of Light from Ivalice straight up betrayed Hydaelyn.

Also Zenos and Fordola have artificial versions of the echo and are immune to tempering as well so you can’t say “WoL can’t be tempered bc they’re already tempered by Hydaelyn”.

I really don’t understand at all why people seem to think Hydaelyn is subversive and is using us and has us tempered. Sure, I don’t think Emet was lying about her being a primal and he has no reason to, but her whole schtick is free will. What is the point of enslaving our minds to do the right thing and save everyone? She does other things that aren’t like normal primal too, such as lack of religion/worshipers. Per Koji himself, Other than the Path of Twelve, the city leaders, and a few others, most of the world doesn’t know anything about the mothercrystal and they don’t even know the planet is called Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

Regardless of the degree of sophistication involved in their construction, the fact remains that they are not ontologically necessary, non-contingent beings upon which all non-contingent phenomena depends. They are themselves part of the created order. In fact, until contrary evidence emerges, I would hypothesise that these beings are not even capable of the sort of free exercise of creation that the Amaurotine engaged in. They may be extremely powerful, but in every way that matters, they're nought but false gods.



I think it most likely that you're correct, but I wouldn't be totally caught off-guard if it turned out that Hydaelyn engages in tempering. After all, we don't know what the subjective experience of being tempered is like. Perhaps when Hydaelyn was speaking to us, this was itself a symptom of tempering. As we know, though, she has grown weaker over the course of the game and no longer speaks to us, which may be a sign that her hold over us, and other WoLs has diminished, and they are able to act in ways contrary to her intent.

On the other hand, tempering has been shown to persist even when a Primal has been vanquished, so this theory probably doesn't hold water.

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Actually, I would argue that due to the planet and everything living on it being split in fourteen when he was sundered, Zodiark is closer to a true god than Hydaelyn. Being an artificial god doesn't mean he's not a genuine one.

On the subject of tempering, Ifrit's inability to temper us and attributing it to us already having such a "blessing" strongly suggests that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering. That said, if we operate under the (relatively fair) assumption that all of Hydaelyn's chosen have such a blessing, it doesn't seem to actually do anything other than provide a power boost when fighting enemies of the world (primals, Ascians, etc). The Echo is supposedly what vaccinates us against the influence of other primals, and others with the (partial) Blessing are even capable of rebelling against Hydaelyn. The slavish devotion present in the tempered followers of some other primals is completely absent.