The Future of the "Ranged" Role - Feedback for 5.1 Onward.

Everlasting shouldnt be counted that much as utility, its nice to have regen but your healer will and should probably heal you up before the tick do anything worth it, it'll only save you a run once in a billion (hey, remeber when it come out people say its just a flavour skill and now because SMN get strong they say its a utility... for real?), as for devotion and sfuff people need to remember they are looking at rDPS now instead the old just dps, which mean all utility is already taken into account... i believe while pure dps should be top in adps they should never be top in rdps... why bring utility when pure is top in rdps!?

Put that aside ranged and rdm is kinda weak compared to the other right now however dancer and bard have a percentage base buff almost the entire fight which should raise more as IL is increased, which is why SE kinda scared to give them big buff ... i think... CMIIW...

But yeah they could get a few hundred buff

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

You are trying to inflate this issue by bringing up superlatives like Everlasting Flight and misunderstanding that Devotion is anything more than just a party damage buff that is already factored into raid dps. Additionally, in your OP you try to say that Summoner's mobility is infringing upon the Ranged "niche" of having full mobility which is both false and completely irrelevant.

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Then mayhap you should explain as to how it does not? Because having 2 Egi Assaults which has 2 Charges on a 30s CD along with Ruin IV being tied to it, how would a SMN not have full mobility? DWT already allows this in heavy movement phases where needed, and if SMN has Ruin IVs to burn then they can use those as well to move. With such a low Cooldown and the current fight design, SMN can move just about as much as any of the Ranged even when playing optimally.

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

You focus on Summoner because it was buffed the most, when in reality it’s simply that the Ranged role was not buffed enough while both Summoner and Red Mage we’re boosted.

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I only was making a comparison to what the role itself is having to compete with. I’m not calling for nerfs, and Hell in my first paragraph I mention our problems as a Ranged which, as you said, were not buffed enough to compete with the Caster role which was recently buffed.

As for the removal of Refresh, it was because it was a vital raid synergy to any group because it allowed them to negate the punishment of deaths in the party for Healers; now, you can easily see how much of a toll it takes on their MP(24% a Raise). Even if they weren’t compensated for said resource, it’s better it’s gone because it also teaches Healers how to manage their MP better.

Aside from that, the best they can do is up the potencies or increase the raid buffs provided by DNC/BRD. The problem that SE fears is that we’ll return to Heavensward meta where Ranged is dominant over Casters, or one Ranged dominates a spot for the entirety of an expansion(Stormblood BRD). Potencies just feel to be a better answer for now until we see where the powercreep lies, because we’ve already seen it with MNK/DRG in 5.0/5.05. Ultimate will be a good judge of what jobs have the most difficulty dealing with the checks involved.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Put that aside ranged and rdm is kinda weak compared to the other right now however dancer and bard have a percentage base buff almost the entire fight which should raise more as IL is increased, which is why SE kinda scared to give them big buff ... i think... CMIIW...

But yeah they could get a few hundred buff

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That would only scale with BRD. DNC is Pure Damage increase from Tech Step and Standard(both are 5% Damage buffs).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

That would only scale with BRD. DNC is Pure Damage increase from Tech Step and Standard(both are 5% Damage buffs).

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furthermore only 1/3 of bard buffs scale exponentially and considering the way it is set up pretty clearly shows that the intent is for all 3 buffs to average out at 1% . it would need ludicrous amounts of crit for the imbalance to get even halfway as bad as it is right now, and really, in that case just nerf bard slightly when that happens, you cant purposefully keep a class underpowered for a year for fear it may overperform when everyone has 60 extra itemlevels

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

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Halicarnassus had a required silence in O3S. I distinctly remember because PUGs sucked and I had to silence that more than once on my MNK back when AotD had a silence. It wasn't fun and honestly, I wouldn't bring that back unless all CC was made available t all jobs to make everyone equally responsible for a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Put that aside ranged and rdm is kinda weak compared to the other right now however dancer and bard have a percentage base buff almost the entire fight which should raise more as IL is increased, which is why SE kinda scared to give them big buff ... i think... CMIIW...

But yeah they could get a few hundred buff

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I greatly prefer SE to remain cautious with touching DNC. The larger the buff is.. the bigger the potential for a nerf in other areas. DNC looks solid to those who don't play it, but frankly it is fragile. I would've liked potency increases to windmill and bloodshower but then they might add that silly "deals 50% less to everything else" nerf. Of course I would like to do more than the projected 13-14k DPS the job is capable of doing, but if more means nerfs, then no.

As for SF/TF - It really bugs me that DNC is thrown into discussions like this because of those two skills. Like people are wishing for it to go away so DNC becomes nothing, and it's barely holding on as it is.

I don't know what else they can do for BRD. They've been back and forth with this job for years. I was there for BRD 2.0, and 3.0. Then SE started "experimenting" with it and we all know how that went before they apparently got it right. I also feel like SE cannot do something for job, without also doing something to another and in a debilitating way, this further reinforces my feelings on just accepting "baby buffs".

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Then mayhap you should explain as to how it does not? Because having 2 Egi Assaults which has 2 Charges on a 30s CD along with Ruin IV being tied to it, how would a SMN not have full mobility? DWT already allows this in heavy movement phases where needed, and if SMN has Ruin IVs to burn then they can use those as well to move. With such a low Cooldown and the current fight design, SMN can move just about as much as any of the Ranged even when playing optimally.

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For a caster to maximize dps they have to balance their available uses of instant casts for both movement and weaving off-global cooldowns. Summoner has been relieved of the 5.0 state where Ruin IV usage was always a net loss (where there were more offgcds to weave than available instants) but even with additional Ruin IV casts, there is still a limit on how many instants are available for movement due to the many weaves Summoner still has along with the mechanics of Bahamut. Because of how Bahamut works, Four stacks of Ruin IV are ideal when entering the Bahamut phase in order to achieve the maximum amount of Wyrmwaves from our Dragon friend. I should also mention while bringing up the Demi-summons that while they will use Wyrmwave and Scarlet Flame when the Summoner is on the move, they will skip over these abilities if Ahk Morn or Revelation is used while they are also trying to follow the Summoner at the same time, therefore adding a factor to pay attention to during an otherwise very friendly movement phase in Firebird Trance. Finally, you mention that DWT allows instant casting in heavy movement phases, but this will almost always result in a dps loss by either 1) Causing a misalignment of DoT timers to force a mid-Bahamut DoT refresh at an awkward time or 2)Pushing Bahamut out of raid buffs. Plus, unless DWT is used on a Ruin III, there is no gain in instant casts, and many times an Egi-Assault will be used here to get that last Ruin IV stack for Bahamut.

Yes, there is a lot more ease of access in planning a fight's movement around offgcd usage and additional Ruin IV stacks that SMN has gained in 5.1, but the Summoner rotation is still rigid and won't always line up preferably. As I would define "full mobility" as having zero restrictions on movement, which is what the Ranged roles have, I would say that the above restrictions, or any restriction at all, means that the class does not have "full mobility."

Damn right mch needs alot more.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

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As someone that plays DNC with some regularity I\\'m gonna have to disagree on Espirit Gauge changes.

Espirit is for Sabre Dance, letting us use that single skill a little more often changes very little, what needs to be addressed is the fact that DNC is a pseudo melee being treated like a backliner.

Yes, that\\'s right, despite our "range" most of our damage requires us to fight up close. Our step finishes are effectively shotgun blasts and maximising our output requires the use of combed (highlighted for bonus potency) Bloodshower, Rising Windmill and Sword Shower to maximise our fourfold feather procs.

The range advantage we have affords us the ability to keep damaging while retreating from mechanics and trying to build our Espirit/Feathers.

How does a 5% damage, buff a 2 min cooldown group buff, crit buff, a 90 second cooldown low potency heal and 10% mitigation skill equate to us being so heavily penalised on dps I\\'ll never know, compare our kits to SAMs, NINs and DRGs, whom while more selfish are not that far detached (they also have more base mitigation and access to much better self sustain)

I think someone grossly overestimated the strength of the range advantage and as a result it has left DNCs as half a Job Class.

Imho they could make a good start here by retuning the DNC AoE skills since we have to use them to do more when only a single target is struck, give us more of that shotgun effect we have with Fan Dance III, Sabre Dance & our step finishes and it would absolutely improve the DNC.

P.S the "support" excuse doesn\\'t cut it for BRD and DNCs low performance, especially now that you have two dps classes with the most invaluable skill (Raise) regularly fighting for the top of the pile.

No more excuses, it\\'s time to redress the balance.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Espirit is for Sabre Dance, letting us use that single skill a little more often changes very little, what needs to be addressed is the fact that DNC is a pseudo melee being treated like a backliner.

Yes, that\\'s right, despite our "range" most of our damage requires us to fight up close. Our step finishes are effectively shotgun blasts and maximising our output requires the use of combed (highlighted for bonus potency) Bloodshower, Rising Windmill and Sword Shower to maximise our fourfold feather procs.

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...Why are you complaining about that when Dancer is one of the most mobile jobs in the entire game? Just because you're Ranged doesn't mean you have to be away from the enemy at ALL times, that and you have plenty of chances to engage an enemy and then keep your distance or avoid AoEs/Do mechanics freely than the other DPS roles. Frankly, I like that Dancer has some short-ranged attacks to give it a little "weakness", or else the job would be too easy.