FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Because I can, I'll pick apart Dragoon, and why both your suggested openers are significant DPS losses.

- Not only does the potion miss Chaos Thrust, a massive loss on its own, it won't even last long enough when you reach your second Full Thrust. Potions should either be used pre-pull at one second or following True Thrust; with Dragon Sight being used pre-pull instead.
- Why would delay Dragon Sight and Lance Charge by six and seven GCDs, respectively? That is an enormous loss that will inevitably cost you a use of both later into the fight. They should only ever be delayed in optimized settings where you know doing so won't cost you a usage.
- You never, ever lead with Jumps. Not only do they loss the benefits of your buffs, it serves you no purpose going into LotD early. Speaking of which...
- Don't go into LotD early unless a fight demands it. E3S comes to mind, where you'll lose Nastronds due to Maelstorm. Otherwise, going in early will cause your Nastronds to miss raid buffs further down the road.
- Why is BotD randomly used during the opening rotation? You delay Hi-Jump/Dragonfire Dive to press a button which is completely useless as you'll have full gauge because you literally just hit Fang and Wheeling.

That last point is probably the best demonstration of how little you understand about the jobs you're attempting to offer optimization on.

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Oh wow, didn't think I'd get someone to point things from this one out. Ok, let's see...
-I actually didn't think to use the Potion before the first Chaos Thrust, but that's a good point since it'll reach the second Chaos Thrust as well.
-Delaying buffs versus using them early comes down to knowing if you'll get an extra use out of them overall, which in my opinion usually means getting most or a full duration out of it (with exceptions like E4S before the transition, which is so long it could cost you a usage overall).
-As you said, you shouldn't go into LotD early unless a fight demands it. The LotD opener is, as I said, only really good for fights that have an add phase around the first minute of an encounter (which the only fight I can think of off the top of my head that does this is UWU).
-As for why BotD is randomly used... I'm just as confused as you are, lol! It's actually supposed to be Battle Litany. Not only that, but I seem to be missing the second Wheeling Thrust for some reason. Thanks for pointing that out. :cool:

Also, fun fact, I progged UWU on DRG towards the end of SB and it only got easier in ShB. If anything, it's probably the class I'm most familiar with after MNK. :D

Progging UwU on a job doesn’t mean you understand how it plays. You can throw that out as if you think it’ll make a difference, but your openers speak for themselves. If you were as familiar with DRG as you claim, you would have never missed the mistakes you made in these “openers”.

Im just gonna say right now. delaying trick attack till 15 seconds is such a huge dps loss for nins and everyone. honestly NIN optimal we'd be using it at 8 seconds if solo was all that mattered, but there is absolutely no good reason for us to delay it to 15 seconds. I do like that you want monk to be different and actually play with that intent btw, but doing so isn't worth asking other people to play crappy to satisfy you. im just noting that asking NIN's and others to further delay their buffs is not something we would ever want to do. additionally your proposed ninja opener has serious flaws even if you wanted to do that.

First: if were waiting so long before tricking there is no reason to pot so early, especially since with how you've lined up trick out pot will miss a raiton and possibly a bhava as well. Additionally potting after suiton would clip majorly because suiton isnt a standard gcd, its cooldown is only 1.5. youd cost us 1/3rd of a GCD right there. Pots have to be used after a weaponskill gcd and even then will still often clip for us. This would be like you using a pot after a meditate. it wouldnt work.
Second: because of how you use mug and delay trick you have us overcapping ninki by 10
Third: mathematically the extra bhava+ bunshin hit + gcd is only a boost in trick if the GCD is aeolian, because you have delayed trick that GCD is not an aeolian and thus just using a second raiton is better. unfortunately this also means combo breaking thus you also need to finish the combo before entering the trick phase. In short this is a serious problem and distinct loss.
Fourth: because you delay our first raiton till post TCJ AND another GCD AND 5 seconds anyways cause of the delayed trick you have cost us 60% of a ninjutsu cast. Thats a huge loss.
Fifth, because of the same effects of missaligning and losing raiton in the trick we will also be unable to properly save raitons for future tricks because of how the GCD will arise.
Sixth: 10 second trick attack has also been in general discovered to line up with all current raids except maybe titan extremely well. moving it even 5 seconds later would cost us a trick in at least two fights i can think off right off to bat.

Theres just alot of subtleties about how the NIN opener operates right now (even in it's tentative form) that this opener would disrupt.

Additionally since hide resets both ninjutsu uses a proper nin has to huton>doton>hide>Suiton in the prepull. Oh and again btw delaying trick also means trick effects less doton hits (doton as a ground dot checks debuffs individually for each tick where trick is concerned) In fact putting trick at 15 seconds basically means it missises all ticks, wheras in our opener currently it catches 2 of them i believe.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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I'm still not seeing the problem with Saber Dance pushing procs out of Tech Finish since it takes priority. If you mean that Saber Dance pushes out Bloodshower and FountainFall if you follow this exact rotation, that means you just have to rearrange the GCDs so that they do fit into Tech Finish (didn't think it was worth mentioning, but I guess I can add it as an extra note).

I'm not 100% sure I can address the possibility of losing a cast of Flourish overall sufficiently cause there are various situations that can happen, especially on a proc-heavy class like DNC. Let's say you do use Tech Step right after Standard Step and then use Flourish. The next time Flourish comes around, you may have a Flourish proc or you may not, and if it's the former, Flourish will get pushed back a GCD or two. When the next Tech Finish comes around, you'd save Flourish for after Saber Dance (which you'd go into Tech Finish with enough Espirit for) or else risk losing the use of a Flourish move altogether, but end up getting a quick succession of Saber Dance procs, pushing Flourish even further back anyway.

Also, Flourish is more akin to an oGCD rather than a buff. You use it and it instantly gives you five Flourished abilities. The real question is whether you lose a Flourish proc or not, which can happen whether you've used Flourish or get natural procs before a fight ends or a phase transition. Then you might have a run where you get so many natural Flourish procs that losing a cast of Flourish actually doesn't matter. Lot of situations to consider with DNC that keep one from giving a definitive answer.

I haven't contacted Theorycrafters about this DNC opener, but I've used it myself for some endgame content, so I'm familiar with how it plays.

Also, I made some silly mistakes with the DRG opener. The second BotD is supposed to be Battle Litany and the second Wheeling Thrust is missing for some reason. Whoops. ^^;

Here's something you don't understand about holding buffs. You NEVER hold buffs in the opener. They are aligned for a reason. The ONLY time you hold buffs is depending on your kill time. For example, in my static we have DNC, DRG, MNK, SMN, SCH. So depending on the kill time of the boss you would hold the final 2 minute window for the final 3 minute window to end the fight under maximum buffs or anything to that extent. Holding buffs is something you do towards the end of the fight, never in the beginning when the openers set the pace for the entire rest of the fight and pretty much EVERY job needs their opener to start and end at a certain time (for example WAR, after Storm's Eye, they are either doing IC > IC > IR or IC > IR > IC, no exceptions so that they stay aligned with Brotherhood (if it exists) and also stays aligned for Trick Attack (and Technical Step) etc.

So, let's use Voidwalker for example since he's a 0 downtime fight pretty much. Let's say your group kills it at like 9:17 or so. Using this timing you could delay final Technical Step, Chain Strat, Dragon Sight, and any other 2 minute CD for the 9 minute window so that everyone is under the effect of as many buffs as possible when the fight ends.

tl;dr holding buffs is an end of fight optimization/speed run optimization, not a beginning of the fight optimization. Openers are already optimized, do not mess with them.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

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Ok, let's answer these questions one by one, shall we?

1. I've actually used the TA opener I listed and the only thing at risk of missing TA is the second Bhava. Raiton makes it in just fine. Seems like Gust slash does miss the pot window though, so Bunshin should be moved up 1 GCD.
2. You're right. It over-capped by 10. Just means Meisui needs to be pushed back after Raiton and the first Bhava moved up after the second Suiton. Thanks for pointing that out.
3. I'm not sure I understand how this is worded. If you mean to say using Aeo instead of Spin in TA is a dps gain, you're correct, however it can also knock the alignment off, and if this causes a bigger loss from other classes over NIN's gain, then it's a moot point (unless you don't care about raid dps).
4. I'm not sure where this percentage number came from. If you mean mudras over-cap for 2 GCDs, then yes, you are correct. If you can math it out and this consistently leads to a loss of a Raiton use over the course of an entire fight, feel free to use everything within TA a GCD or two earlier.
5.Again, both Raitons fit within TA just fine. Only way it won't is if you have high ping.
6. Again, if using TA up to 10 seconds gains you an extra cast overall, feel free to do so.

Lastly, like Salted Earth, Doton isn't affected by TA (going off what FFlogs says anyway). It snapshots the buffs you have when it's used. Plus, since you use Doton before TA, it ends up doing less than Raiton (because again, both fit within TA).

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Oof. You're right about the 6th out of 8 WW's. Overlooked that part, thanks for that.

Aside from that, the terms "Standard" and "Early Devotion" refers to this raid alignment, not in general.

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I gathered they were in regards to alignment. They are still not even standard nor early. You didn't come to us to verify if the opener was sane nor sensible. Every time the Summoner openers in your documents make me scratch my head and really show a lack of experience and understanding of the job if anything to try and push a personal agenda for alignment considerations. Please, if you absolutely have to, stick to the jobs you know and stop with Summoner.

I just came back from the hospital after getting the tumor removed that I got from reading this post.
Do you even play the game or did you just make this for a kindergarten's project?

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I'm still not seeing the problem with Saber Dance pushing procs out of Tech Finish since it takes priority. If you mean that Saber Dance pushes out Bloodshower and FountainFall if you follow this exact rotation, that means you just have to rearrange the GCDs so that they do fit into Tech Finish (didn't think it was worth mentioning, but I guess I can add it as an extra note).

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The problem is that your Flourished procs are not buffed by Technical Finish’s 5% buff (on top of the already passive 5% Standard Finish buff you have), which is a DPS loss. They will also not be susceptible to Devilment’s increased Crit/D.Hit chance, another potential DPS loss. With the standard DNC opener, the only loss of damage you get if is one of your procs drops. Otherwise, they all fit within a TF window along with your Saber Dance procs, so none of the Flourished skills lose out on the +5% from TF or the additional Crit/D.Hit chance of Devilment.

You’re incredibly insistent on changing buff alignment to be more “uniform”, but you can’t seem the grasp the idea that your proposed DNC “openers” potentially push some of your most potent skills outside of your personal buff window. Defending it with the priority system doesn’t work, since the current opener manages to get all Flourished skills, all Saber Dances, and Standard Finish within the Tech Finish/Devilment window while simultaneously respecting DNC’s priority system. Please, if you can’t understand simple concepts of damage loss, you shouldn’t be designing openers.

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I'm not 100% sure I can address the possibility of losing a cast of Flourish overall sufficiently cause there are various situations that can happen, especially on a proc-heavy class like DNC. Let's say you do use Tech Step right after Standard Step and then use Flourish. The next time Flourish comes around, you may have a Flourish proc or you may not, and if it's the former, Flourish will get pushed back a GCD or two. When the next Tech Finish comes around, you'd save Flourish for after Saber Dance (which you'd go into Tech Finish with enough Espirit for) or else risk losing the use of a Flourish move altogether, but end up getting a quick succession of Saber Dance procs, pushing Flourish even further back anyway.

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If you have to push TF back a GCD for a proc, that is how you play the job. You keep in mind your delay, but still use the skill on cooldown so long as you do not overwrite a proc. Naturally, Flourish will not drift enough for you to push all of your procs out of a buff window unless you are just completely negligent with managing your rotation. At most, I end up delaying it by maybe a GCD or two—but a lot of TF windows in the current tier require being held for party members to gather (E1S, E2S, E4S), or are affected by downtime (E4S), allowing your cooldowns to realign.

You do not, however, delay Flourish in the opener as you have done here, because now you’ve pushed all subsequent uses back far more than a stray proc would push it back. Keep in mind that you may still get a proc with this proposed usage you’re making before any given Flourish cast, pushing it back even more. The more you push back each Flourish cast, the more you risk all of your Flourished skills not being buffed by your personal buff window with the proposed openers you have made here.

You also cannot guarantee ever going into a Technical window with enough Esprit for a Saber Dance unless you’re in a scenario like E4S, where fight downtime allows you to channel Improvisation for Espirt. Generally, I believe it’s recommended to not be at a high Espirt gauge value before entering Technical Finish because of the likelihood of overcapping your Esprit gauge, which is a huge damage loss.

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Also, Flourish is more akin to an oGCD rather than a buff. You use it and it instantly gives you five Flourished abilities. The real question is whether you lose a Flourish proc or not, which can happen whether you've used Flourish or get natural procs before a fight ends or a phase transition. Then you might have a run where you get so many natural Flourish procs that losing a cast of Flourish actually doesn't matter. Lot of situations to consider with DNC that keep one from giving a definitive answer.

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Sweetheart, you don’t need to explain how Flourish works to me. I’m already aware of how my job plays. Even if it is “more akin to an oGCD”, it has a relatively short cooldown tuner that is highly susceptible to kill times pushing out an entire use of the skill if it is unnecessarily delayed.

No, the real question is if you lose a cast of it or not. With the way you’re insisting on delaying its very first usage, it’s entirely possible. No, getting “extra procs” throughout a fight doesn’t “make up” losing an entire usage of the skill.

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I haven't contacted Theorycrafters about this DNC opener

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I already figured as much.

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but I've used it myself for some endgame content, so I'm familiar with how it plays.

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Yeah, and I don’t think it’s particularly working for you, if the runs of Innocence I looked at are any indication.

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Also, I made some silly mistakes with the DRG opener. The second BotD is supposed to be Battle Litany and the second Wheeling Thrust is missing for some reason. Whoops. ^^;

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There were more mistakes than just that.


Look. I get that you have this thing with wanting to make the Tornado Kick opener on MNK actually viable, but as I said to you the last time you posted openers, changing buff alignments and changing openers for all the jobs is not worth it for one skill the developers made defunct. The most optimal buff alignments and openers have already been decided—they won’t change, and you should really stop pushing your openers with the name of The Balance included amongst them as if the theorycrafters there endorse what you have done.

Considering how many of us from The Balance have come to speak out otherwise...