Idea: Merit system

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Somehow I feel that the people who pull high DPS would also be the people who'd have no issue to put in the effort to grind out their merits. But yeah we can't allow dedicated players to get head in any way, rather have them unsub between content patches bc they run out of things to do, that's healthy for a game ^^

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So instead you'd have people who would unsub when they find things like grind out merits to be busywork.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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I think you've just described why item level progression is a good thing. It's simple enough to grasp and not as grindy as it can be or as other systems can get yet still useful but optional at the same time. Look at how many people still complain about solo quests. My guess is many of those complaints would disappear if they'd just have better gear. Max level dungeons also don't have item level cap as far as I know, so better gear is what can save you when other people in your party isn't performing as they should. And if you only play with static, then you can set your own item level depending on the challenge you want to set for your group.

As for relic system, anything that gives core ability would just not work in a vertical progression system in my opinion as it would just be discarded in the next expansion or suddenly not work as well when abilities get changed (pruned/reordered/expanded). That's why item level with "boring" stats works so well from expansion to expansion until a simple stat squish is done whenever they feel the need.

Thank you for the idea, but thanks NO.

The way how our job system works is the exact reason why I like this game, not to mention that this Merit system will be a typical "spend 9999999999999999 hours in the game for one job badge" Korean grind, while developers try to make game in a way where 1 hour online per day can be as productive as 10 hours per day (and thank gods they do it like this).

How would I remove your reaction image? I am neither a moderator or forum representative.

I am sorry if you mistook my dismissal of your argument as hostility. I have nothing against endgame players that just wish to enjoy FF XIV. I do have nothing but disdain for Tryhards that believe that this game is somehow doomed by not catering to their desire du jour. I do realize that in my haste to give your argument its just dismissal I did fail to counter it. I will promptly attend to that.

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But yeah we can't allow dedicated players to get head in any way, rather have them unsub between content patches bc they run out of things to do, that's healthy for a game ^^

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In this statement you make an indication that subscriptions maybe contingent upon implementation of a level cap progression system. If that is not an attempt at a hostage scenario, pray tell what is it?

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Wait, newcomers can't catch up to top tier players who have been playing for 6 years in 2 weeks? The tragedy.

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Post #14

A very transparent statement in which you feel that the time played metric should be method that directly correlates to player power.

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Bruh I'd just like some way of further improving my character after hitting max level.

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Post #20

Again, obfuscating towards your actual argument.

You want some measurable, quantifiable way to place a higher value on yourself versus another player particularly a newer or lesser experienced one. I find the most easily understood and versatile word for such a value to be "epeen".

While I cannot say objectively that a level cap progression system would or would not doom a game. I can subjectively say the end game progression system that WoW has implemented with the Heart of Azeroth did in fact drive me away after 11 years of play with every AOTC since they began granting the achievement.

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Originally Posted by linay

It's simple enough to grasp and not as grindy as it can be or as other systems can get yet still useful but optional at the same time.

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In what way is it useful? What content does item level actually help out with?

Perhaps I should clarify, when I say item level, I mean something you'd actually have to put effort towards getting. You can sleep your way into a full set of i440, heck even a set of i460 given enough weeks. So what purpose does i470 serve in this game? Making the content you just beat to obtain it even easier? It's a non-reward. Just compare the rewards people actually care in this game, to the gear rewards; Mounts. Something like Trials exist almost exclusively for mount farming. The item level from the weapons? Redundant pretty much at release. Relevant item level is something that requires absolutely no effort, and as such the "relevant" item level from raids/etc. offers absolutely no purpose IMHO.

Like I said, the thing to work on and improve in this game isn't your item level, it's learning the mechanics of encounters. That's it. Like I also said, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does leave an itch thoroughly un-scratched for people who expect RPG elements in a MMORPG. People want a progression system in their RPGs, when you're basically fully geared by default? There's no progression there. You hit the level cap and the thing to work on isn't your equipment, it's learning a set of scripts for boss encounters. That's great for some people, bad for others.

Again, I think Relics are the solution, but SE has casual-ified Relics to such an absurd degree... Not only that but it seems they get pushed back each expansion, too... A Realm Reborn released with A Relic Reborn, and when that content was relevant it was IMO the best piece of progression content this game has offered. Anima weapons took a while to get going in comparison, and Eureka took almost half of Stormbloods lifetime to even get released to lukewarm reception... I wish they'd go back to A Relic Reborn style Relic quests, the whole idea to make Relics a casual reward is absurd to me; Isn't that exactly what tomestone weapons are already? Instead now we get Relics that you can upgrade largely without even using... It's such a pathetic state of progression... Anima was the worst IMO, simply because for the vast majority of that process I was not using the weapon, or even doing Lv60 content... Eureka was at least Lv70 content, if you can call FATEs content, but it was level capped, so the weapon was largely irrelevant until they had the admittedly rather good idea to add Eurekan Effect stats, but that was basically right at the end of the process... Heck most of A Realm Reborns process was awful too, the initial quest was only good because it (mostly) carried over from 1.x, it was the closest this game every came to offering some mid-core content though, now it's Savage and Ultimate for hardcore players, and literally everything else for the super casuals... No inbetween...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Again, I think Relics are the solution, but SE has casual-ified Relics to such an absurd degree...?

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eureka wasn’t really casualization, in fact a lot of the more super casual players I know didn’t want to touch it(esp once Pagos came out) because of the amount of grind there was and the fact you could loose exp and what not.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

eureka wasn’t really casualization, in fact a lot of the more super casual players I know didn’t want to touch it(esp once Pagos came out) because of the amount of grind there was and the fact you could loose exp and what not.

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I wouldn't call AFKing in the FATE train anything but a casual mess of failed games designs. You're right though, it was a fairly hardcore grind, which is why I almost liked Eureka... It fails very hard in other aspects though, but it had promise... Well hopefully Shadowbringers Relic learns something when it's eventually released in 5.4, or whatever date it's inevitably delayed to.

I guess the best way to put it for Eureka specifically, is that it wasn't a casual grind, but the content you were grinding was by far the most casual this game has ever seen... Literally just FATEs with zerg-mode enabled? I cannot properly articulate how awful I find that.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Like I said, the thing to work on and improve in this game isn't your item level, it's learning the mechanics of encounters. That's it. Like I also said, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does leave an itch thoroughly un-scratched for people who expect RPG elements in a MMORPG. People want a progression system in their RPGs, when you're basically fully geared by default? There's no progression there. You hit the level cap and the thing to work on isn't your equipment, it's learning a set of scripts for boss encounters. That's great for some people, bad for others.

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I'm one of those player that likes the focus on player skill over gear. It is in my opinion and vastly more interesting form of progression. However FF14 is trying to pull in a wide audience so it has to have different types of content for different players. I don't mind that as long as they're kept separate.

A merit system to grind further stats for your leveled classes is not something that I'd like to see added to the game. It would just be another task you're forced to pursue rather than tackling your own goals. More customization could be interesting, but there is a better way to do it in materia. Expand that system the options and the influence we have within that system and I'd be fine with it. A grindy merit system is something that should be reserved for its own niche I think, like Eureka logos.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

In what way is it useful? What content does item level actually help out with?

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I gave two examples: solo duties when you're not good with your rotation and group duties when the other people are not performing well. And yes, most content do not need as much item level, which is why it's optional and not busy work and that's a good thing. People who want to do harder content will get appropriate item level and higher item level will always make contents easier unless the content is capped.

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While you might think item level is a non-reward for content that you've just beaten, there is a reason why savage and ultimate still give gear reward as their primary reward, with mount and title as secondary.

And the gearing option is what makes it good. Yes, you can grind out tomestone for a better weapon, but if you can farm trial and get a good enough weapon, that's 1000 tomestones you can use for other things. They're only redundant if you do every content, but not every player does every content, so there are gear options for a variety of content, including crafted gears. Again, that's a good thing.

And I do think Relic is good if it's useful (but still stick to the item level progression and not give additional abilities), but as you've said, it's been pushed back so long these days that it's mainly there for cosmetics.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

However FF14 is trying to pull in a wide audience so it has to have different types of content for different players.

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See, the problem is I don't think that's true. We don't have a lot of different types of content, we have two types of content; Raiding, and everything else. Aside from 5 instances per patch cycle (4 Savage Raids + Ultimate), the rest of the game is just tuned to such an absurdly casual level. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having casual content, just that I wish there was either some middle ground (there is a distinct lack of mid-tier content with any real purpose) or simply more hardcore content. Having i470 solely for 5 instances really doesn't cut it IMO.

Again, Relics are my solution over something like Merits. Problem is Relics are consistently delayed and increasingly dumbed down to such an utterly meaningless level...

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I don't mind that as long as they're kept separate.

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What would you say to one piece of content that brings various pieces of content together? My ideal Relic quest is probably something like that... I'd like a process where you upgrade the weapon off the expansions Trials, Deep Dungeon, Treasure Map Dungeon, 24 man Raid, Normal mode Raid, etc. Something that says "Here's all the content we've added, go do it".

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Originally Posted by linay

And I do think Relic is good if it's useful (but still stick to the item level progression and not give additional abilities), but as you've said, it's been pushed back so long these days that it's mainly there for cosmetics.

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Ah, to clarify; I don't want to see abilities on Relic weapons. Well... Not exactly anyway... As I said earlier, I think the Eurekan Effect they added to the tail end of the Eurekan weapons was actually a really good idea (wish it was there from the start). That concept has a lot of potential to add interesting stats and mechanics to Relics, without threatening game balance. The Eureka weapon is by far the best weapon to use in Eureka because of that stat, but that doesn't mean it's the best weapon to use in raiding. If we get more Eureka style content (although if we do, I hope it isn't the only process for the Relic like Eureka was), I think it would be interesting to actually put abilities on the weapons (rather than the Logos system), they could just be Eurekan Effect abilities that only apply in that content. Perfect solution, really. It would make the weapon far more interesting than the "Oh it has more substats I don't care about" we normally get.

Heck, stats like that don't even need to be limited to Relics and combat content. Take Gold Saucer gear as an example. Purely cosmetic stuff, right? But why? Why not have "Increases the chance of winning Triple Triad cards" on a piece of equipment? "Increase Race Chocobo EXP"? "Increase Minion Drop Rate"? They could easily have gear obtained from anywhere, with interesting stats that have purpose, that have zero impact on combat balance. How excited do you think people would be to obtain something like an "Increase Mount Drop Rate" piece of gear? So much they could do with such concepts, but instead we're limited to effectively the same sets of gear ad nauseum.

If you can't tell, I'm a fan of items like the Thief's Glove from classic Final Fantasy games. That I'm more excited when I find a piece of gear like that in an old RPG from the 90s, than I am about any of the gear in this modern MMORPG, is exactly why I have issues with itemization in this game. I want that excitement here, but it's an itch that is unscratched even in most modern RPGs...

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Somehow I feel that the people who pull high DPS would also be the people who'd have no issue to put in the effort to grind out their merits. But yeah we can't allow dedicated players to get head in any way, rather have them unsub between content patches bc they run out of things to do, that's healthy for a game ^^

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I can't think of a lot of high-end end game players who would welcome this system, since it doesn't only lock you to a role (already lowering your flexibility), but to a specific job in that role. And just about every high-end player I've run into likes to play multiple jobs in end game content (and usually multiple different roles -- like Healer/Tank, Tank/DPS, DPS/Healer, Tank/DPS/Healer).

It's about as "much to do" as capping tomes weekly, and frankly that's boring to do.

I agree in that there should be something, ideally some sort of actual content, to do, but a system that severely locks you -- not into one role, but one job -- ain't it.