Patch 5.05 Astrologian is still frustrating, stressful, and disappointing

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Originally Posted by Quor

RE: Divination prep -
I believe this was intentional to prevent the "pre-loading" of cards prior to starting a fight. Sure, maybe you got lucky with a Balance + Ewer/Spire and were good to go within 60s, or maybe you sat there cursing RNG for 5 minutes as the game refused to give you anything but Boles. But either way, you would wait, because having that expanded Balance in your pocket at the beginning was just too good. They did the same thing with SCH aetherflow by making it useless out of combat (see also: WAR Infuriate). SE doesn't want us "prepping" like that anymore, and I can see where they're coming from. It sucked knowing that with a SCH in the group you had a full minute wait time before you could restart a fight, and likewise with AST you could sit there for several minutes before you would actual start a fight, only to do it again later if there was a wipe. But even doing it just once was still boring and unfun, on top of giving AST a major advantage over the other healers.
Now, everyone's on the same equal footing when they start. Everyone needs to wait for combat to start before generating their respective resources.

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My problem with the decision is that it seems to have been made exclusively with raids in mind, without considering other content. Outside of savage raids, I'm not sure anyone even knows what an "opener" is, let alone makes the group wait while they prepare the perfect one. Meanwhile it's annoying in dungeons, to have to deliberately do something to "get yourself in combat", on every single trash pack, before you can start doing your job.

On the other hand, I'm definitely not saying the problem should have been ignored just because most people weren't running into it---it certainly sounds really irritating to me. I'd have just preferred an alternative solution, like "all secondary resources set to zero when pulling a raid boss" or something.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I played AST from 70 to 80 before the 5.05 buffs.
It was fine. People are overreacting.

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The OP has a few hyperboles in it but the complaint is reasonably well put
-The card system is too much work for not enough gain, say what you will about the old system at least it felt impactful
-There are too many ogcds to juggle to be as effective as you can be, this is tied into the card system, the numerous timers going on and Earthly star being the only one with a failsafe if you lose track while healing
-Neutral feels underwhelming, this is due to ast having lost it's increased healing on sects so our heals naturally became weaker (same with sch/whm losing Largesse but ast lost that too so we lost 2x the amount of potency increasing)
-Nocturnal being Nocturnal, this has always been an issue since inception, Diurnal has always been better, ShB just put more shade on it
-CU is weak and pathetic and needs a buff something most ast believe it should

Now i do not agree with OP on everything but they put forward a good argument why they are not liking ast atm, the stuff i added in my post are direct problems i have ast.

But i am going to contest you on ast was fine pre 5.05, it was not it was very close to launch 3.0 ast in terms of how undertuned it was the 5.05 buffs made it go from barely ok to 'its fine' status like the other healers, which ofc have their own issues as well. Nothing here has been an overreaction apart from the finger gymnastics but to get the best opener you kinda do need to do that but it quietens down after that as does most dps jobs (opener is always busiest part then when buffs realign so for Ast 6 mins in), i mean we could always open another thread whenever ast gets a buff whm would be made completely redundant again :P

Now take this with a grain of salt but if the devs followed your line of reasoning with, Ast was fine pre 5.05, how bad do you think it would be in savage? bare in mind after the buffs Ast is still behind Whm and Sch in usuability(3-4 weeks in), providing rDPS(not personal its utility is still behind whm's pure dps and sch's mix), it can heal good(when it used to be the worse at it).

It paints you as someone who is blindly going along with whatever despite glaring issues and trying to downplay people's concerns with a job that needs to be looked at more (Whm and Sch for that matter too).

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Neutral feels underwhelming, this is due to ast having lost it's increased healing on sects so our heals naturally became weaker (same with sch/whm losing Largesse but ast lost that too so we lost 2x the amount of potency increasing)

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Quick note, but I recall them buffing most of AST's base potencies to make up for the sect healing loss when ShB rolled out. I also have to disagree with everyone here saying Neutral Sect is underwhelming; it's by far the best of the 80 healer abilities IMO. Stacks with SCH's shields, provides a beefy regen, and can be reapplied. Aspected Benefic becomes hilariously strong because of it, and Aspected Heilos can shield from a respectable amount of damage and top everyone off at the same time. Other healers have to use 2 abilities to get those results from 1 cast, or more. I would take it over Temperance any day, considering how many times someone would need to take damage that's reduced by 10% to equal the amount that Neutral Sect would outright absorb, or Consolation from Seraph even.

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Originally Posted by Wawachume

My problem with the decision is that it seems to have been made exclusively with raids in mind, without considering other content. Outside of savage raids, I'm not sure anyone even knows what an "opener" is, let alone makes the group wait while they prepare the perfect one. Meanwhile it's annoying in dungeons, to have to deliberately do something to "get yourself in combat", on every single trash pack, before you can start doing your job.

On the other hand, I'm definitely not saying the problem should have been ignored just because most people weren't running into it---it certainly sounds really irritating to me. I'd have just preferred an alternative solution, like "all secondary resources set to zero when pulling a raid boss" or something.

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On the one hand, I sympathize with you, but on the other, I don't. I don't say this to be cheeky, it's just that over the long view, all SE did was take SMN/SCH/AST and bring them in line with every other job. No one else can generate non-MP resources outside of combat, and now SMN/SCH/AST are on equal footing with everyone else. Because let's be honest here; being able to prep cards (and aetherflow stacks) was an outright advantage.
As for your suggestion, I get where you're coming from, but practically it's just going to create a lot of confusion. While it'd be nice not to worry about it in a non-8-man environment, truth be told no one is losing sleep over non-optimal 4-mans. If anything, disabling the "Play" button until the AST is in combat will solve the issue just as well; can't waste a card if you can't use it.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The cards could literally just be "throw confetti into the air" and I'd still prefer it over whm, it's more engaging to have something outside of heals and dps to manage, regardless of how much it contributes. Some people prefer not being a glare mage, irregardless of actual contribution.

Not to mention, the cards arent the only thing ast brings now. It brings its ogcd heals as well, while the AST themself have the awesome ability to use ogcds without loosing damage potency thanks to Malefic's cast time. While yeah their personal dps isnt the highest, they are def capable enough to minimize their cohealer gcd healing without loosing to much of their own.

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That is fair and fine, but doesn't change the fact that Ast potencies are flat out inferior to Whm and there is, apart from having more fun to play the class, literally no reason to bring Ast instead of Whm.
As I said it doesn't matter much if you are just playing casually, but for more competetive gameplay this is an actual issue.

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Originally Posted by Arale

Neutral Sect

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I do agree that the idea of Neutral Sect is really good and an obv choice for Ast, but I really dislike the duration and CD.

You get: 20s of both sects on your aspected Skills every 2min, but Asts whole skillset prevents you from spamming GCD heals. So why the long duration?! + You obv don't want to spam asp. Helios bc you why would you want to overwrite the buffed HoT it applies instead of letting it work on its own?

The skill could be much better with a much shorter duration (say 10s, more than enough for both 1 asp. Helios and 2 asp. Benefic) and therefore a shorter CD. But I guess they can't do this because all healers need to have a strong 2min skill that lasts 20s. :rolleyes: It does work well for Sch and Whm, bc the Seraph is just a buffed version of your regular fairy and Temperance boosts your Lily heals which you mainly use for healing anyways, but the concept is just lackluster for Ast and all their oGCD tools.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Aspected Benefic is an instant cast, theres weaving space for your cards, Lightspeed is a thing, that makes the benefic II spam give you weave space. AST has the tools for allowing you to heal that bad tank and play YuGiOh. And so what? Bad tanks are bad and no amount of healing on your part will fix that.

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And with Noct Stance, Aspected benefic becomes another Essential Dignity, albeit using GCD and its high MP cost. As far as I know, there's no one who could Insta Shield besides Noct AST. Also, Lightspeed is an underrated skill. It's literally an "Oh Shit" button for AST. You could spam Aspected Helios and Helios with 50% less MP, you could Benefic and Benefic II that bad tank and you can still weave Celestial Opposition and Earthly Star. You could also slip Aspected helios' regen if you're in Diurnal to quickly apply regen stacking for those so called bad tanks.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The cards could literally just be "throw confetti into the air" and I'd still prefer it over whm, it's more engaging to have something outside of heals and dps to manage, regardless of how much it contributes. Some people prefer not being a glare mage, irregardless of actual contribution.

Not to mention, the cards arent the only thing ast brings now. It brings its ogcd heals as well, while the AST themself have the awesome ability to use ogcds without loosing damage potency thanks to Malefic's cast time. While yeah their personal dps isnt the highest, they are def capable enough to minimize their cohealer gcd healing without loosing to much of their own.

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I share the sentiment. Also, don't our cards' and Divination buff count as our dps as well? Those along with Malefic and Combust surely count for our personal dps, right?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Careful, make sure you preface this by saying it's just your opinion.

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Ha. Also, love your siggy. ;)

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

That is fair and fine, but doesn't change the fact that Ast potencies are flat out inferior to Whm and there is, apart from having more fun to play the class, literally no reason to bring Ast instead of Whm.
As I said it doesn't matter much if you are just playing casually, but for more competetive gameplay this is an actual issue.






I do agree that the idea of Neutral Sect is really good and an obv choice for Ast, but I really dislike the duration and CD.

You get: 20s of both sects on your aspected Skills every 2min, but Asts whole skillset prevents you from spamming GCD heals. So why the long duration?! + You obv don't want to spam asp. Helios bc you why would you want to overwrite the buffed HoT it applies instead of letting it work on its own?

The skill could be much better with a much shorter duration (say 10s, more than enough for both 1 asp. Helios and 2 asp. Benefic) and therefore a shorter CD. But I guess they can't do this because all healers need to have a strong 2min skill that lasts 20s. :rolleyes: It does work well for Sch and Whm, bc the Seraph is just a buffed version of your regular fairy and Temperance boosts your Lily heals which you mainly use for healing anyways, but the concept is just lackluster for Ast and all their oGCD tools.

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But it's easy to weave it in between casts of dps, or cards, or other healing abilities. The duration may be a bit long, but I've reshielded my group at the end of it's cast so that they can absorb the next mechanic and regen a little after. Some AoE's come in waves as well. E1S has several instances where you get whacked with 2 heavy raid wide damage abilities. Hell, I often provide most of the healing for Paradise Regained because the duration of N.Sect is enough that you can shield the tank lasers, then the delta buddy stack, and one final cast for the altered delta mechanic itself. While I will concede that using it once and leaving it does feel kind of whatever, the instances where I do that don't seem to be very often. I'll either weave a NA.Nenefic on the tank and continue casting. Just my 2c honestly.

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Originally Posted by Arale

But it's easy to weave it in between casts of dps, or cards, or other healing abilities. The duration may be a bit long, but I've reshielded my group at the end of it's cast so that they can absorb the next mechanic and regen a little after. Some AoE's come in waves as well. E1S has several instances where you get whacked with 2 heavy raid wide damage abilities. Hell, I often provide most of the healing for Paradise Regained because the duration of N.Sect is enough that you can shield the tank lasers, then the delta buddy stack, and one final cast for the altered delta mechanic itself. While I will concede that using it once and leaving it does feel kind of whatever, the instances where I do that don't seem to be very often. I'll either weave a NA.Nenefic on the tank and continue casting. Just my 2c honestly.

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I guess the skill is fine for most occasions and players, but take whatever I say with a tiny grain of salt, because I see everything in the context of a very high level of optimisation.
While you ofc can use several GCDs during the Neutral Sect window, you obviously don't want that when trying to maximize your DPS output, so ye. Not a big fan personally. ^^'

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Originally Posted by Evanoel

I share the sentiment. Also, don't our cards' and Divination buff count as our dps as well? Those along with Malefic and Combust surely count for our personal dps, right?

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Ast is still inferior to Whm rDPS and pDPS wise. It will probably change later in the expansion when DPS do more damage so the % buffs of the cards give out exponantially more damage too, but only time will tell.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I guess the skill is fine for most occasions and players, but take whatever I say with a tiny grain of salt, because I see everything in the context of a very high level of optimisation.
While you ofc can use several GCDs during the Neutral Sect window, you obviously don't want that when trying to maximize your DPS output, so ye. Not a big fan personally. ^^'



Ast is still inferior to Whm rDPS and pDPS wise. It will probably change later in the expansion when DPS do more damage so the % buffs of the cards give out exponantially more damage too, but only time will tell.

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Normally I'd agree, but AST is the master at weaving so I feel like I'd lose less DPS throwing in a few heals vs a WHM who has to stop casting Glare in order to use one of their GCD heals. This is coming from an omnihealer perspective, so it might just be nuance for me at that point.

Inferior now yes, sadly. But %'s are tricky, and people have done the math. Eventually we will gain from everyone getting better gear, etc. This also doesn't factor in any potency buffs from cards that may happen. Given all the complaining, concerns and even some vitriol around here, I would be super surprised if they didn't do something about Divination at the very least.

Hmm i don't know. I feel like the flow has improved quite a bit. It's still a bit clunky when some cooldowns come up but nowhere near as bad. I hope they will eventually get it right but some steps have been made in the right direction.