Probably a dumb idea on class balance.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

DPS is mostly "everything" with the way encounters have been designed since heavensward. Basically all bosses are DPS checks with positional mechanics players need to handle to their best abilities while maintaining uptime. But this wasn't always the case. Back in ARR the game was more balanced. Some encounters were a challenge to tank due to tanking mechanics (eg T5 with the snakes to aggro asap before they killed someone), healing mechanics (titan hard used to hit very hard at the beginning) or DPS making use of their utility (DPS having to kite adds during T7). But it was deemed too complicated so now we re trapped with fights that have simplistic mechanics in their concept (Everything is about avoiding AOE, soaking and looking in a particular direction) but have tight DPS requirements (and now with a lot of raid AoEs), with almost no adds on encounters and where the only difference between a good and a bad tank is the amount of DPS dealt. Honestly this is very sad.

Look at eden savage, it is all about positionals, raid AOEs so healers don't fall asleep and DPS checks. Now just go run all of the coil of bahamut with min ilvl requirement (if you didn't complete it back in they day) and come honestly tell me the design wasn't different back then.

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This is also why I say that I don't trust the playerbase. I ran a lot of this back when it was hard, and enjoyed how much work we had to put into things to get clears (I personally was on the CC duty). But too many people complained it was too hard to DPS while doing this stuff (along with many things from ARR) and so we got these dumbed down raids. People say the encounters are the ones encouraging this mindset for DPS is everything, but the playerbase was the cause of it to begin with for refusing to adapt and get better to where they could do these things. Anybody who believes otherwise should look at that old thread asking for nerfs to Royal Menagerie, which mechanically was about as difficult as an Alexander Creator 8-man normal raid.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

If SE wanted to stop this mentality they should stop making scripted fights where a healer is only needed because of auto-attacks, AOE damage, and tank busters.

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Would you prefer non-scripted attacks where the boss randomly utilizes all of its damage abilities (including tank-busters and party-killing attacks)?

All combat is scripted in this genre of games to make it consistent, or else some parties would get by with no problem (with the boss stuck doing auto-attacks because RNG), while other groups would wipe constantly to constant high-damage attacks with no respite, because RNG.

Hmmm... Perhaps that should be a duty-finder option when queuing? "Non-scripted, randomized Boss attacks". Same thing for the trash mobs too?

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

That is the complete opposite of balance. Why should an easy to play job do the same amount of damage as a difficult job.

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Define 'easy to play job', given that everyone is pretty much limited by the GCD/oGCD attack cycle.

As an example, Bard had a plethora of buttons to push in a relatively complex priority-list all the way through two expansions, but did way less damage than jobs with a much simpler rotation.

DPS trumping everything else isn't so much a mentality, as it is an verifiable, objective advantage over every other option.


The only place this discussion has any relevancy is in Savage and Ultimate. Since everything else is easily clearable in complete PUGs (also, I'll admit it's an Ultimate only consideration since Savage is easily cleared in PUGs). When you have players performing at an Ultimate level, that extra health, shield, or healing is completely unnecessary, because those players will not make mistakes consistently that would necessitate it (and, further, on kill pulls (not wipe pulls), those kind of mistakes are non-existent). What does garner an advantage in that environment? More DPS. Boss dies sooner. Adds die sooner. Difficult mechanics are breezed through faster.


This is why the idea is silly. There is only one answer: more DPS. You may think that extra health or shield helps you out on a given pull, but that was never going to be a kill; because if you're making mistakes that leads you to think you want that, you're not gonna kill the boss on the only difficulty where your decision matters.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Define 'easy to play job', given that everyone is pretty much limited by the GCD/oGCD attack cycle.

As an example, Bard had a plethora of buttons to push in a relatively complex priority-list all the way through two expansions, but did way less damage than jobs with a much simpler rotation.

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Red Mage vs Summoner, for one. Red Mage is completely brain dead to play at an acceptable level, and nobody can change my mind on that. Compare it to Summoner, which has a rotation that is literally giving people hand cramps. Why should Red Mage do more damage than a Summoner? Give me one good reason.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Red Mage vs Summoner, for one. Red Mage is completely brain dead to play at an acceptable level, and nobody can change my mind on that. Compare it to Summoner, which has a rotation that is literally giving people hand cramps. Why should Red Mage do more damage than a Summoner? Give me one good reason.

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I play both. Haven't really noticed that Red Mage is completely brain dead to play. Can't speak to the damage either, as the Red Mage is still stuck in the mid-50s. The game play of Summoner is more like that of Bard in that the priority-list can be relatively complex. I'm used to that after more than four years of playing it. I suspect for me it is now what you might call brain dead to play, whereas I have to pay attention with the Red Mage.

Can't give you a good reason behind damage, but then again, why should the relatively simpler Black Mage do more damage? Or the 'strictly by the book" rotation of the Dragoon? Heck, why doesn't Bard do more damage as a DPS than any other DPS, given its complexity. I suspect the answer is that (a) you don't do damage in an instance if you can't pay attention to mechanics and end up dead (b) complexity of play style appeals to people who don't really care if they do 500 less damage per second in the instances where they hang out (c) some jobs appear to do more damage because they have more highly skilled players setting the trend for 'DPS of the expansion?

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Red Mage vs Summoner, for one. Red Mage is completely brain dead to play at an acceptable level, and nobody can change my mind on that. Compare it to Summoner, which has a rotation that is literally giving people hand cramps. Why should Red Mage do more damage than a Summoner? Give me one good reason.

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Red Mage does not do more damage than Summoner.


https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=99


I've chosen the 99th percentile to eliminate the discrepancies between player skill levels. Whether it is raid DPS or adjusted DPS Summoner comes out on top of Red Mage.


Edit: Also, in more general terms, the "X is relatively more complicated to play and therefore should do more DPS" is really an archaic design philosophy. To start: in no modern MMO is any spec "complex." There are just not enough buttons to justify such a stance. The game is more diverse and enjoyable if every spec is competitive, and not because spec X has a few more oGCDs to weave.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Red Mage does not do more damage than Summoner.

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that's what this topic is suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

How would we differentiate the classes? Easy make every exact class have the exact theoretical dps limit.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I play both. Haven't really noticed that Red Mage is completely brain dead to play. Can't speak to the damage either, as the Red Mage is still stuck in the mid-50s.

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Probably not your topic until you've at least played both at level cap.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Red Mage does not do more damage than Summoner.


https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=99


I've chosen the 99th percentile to eliminate the discrepancies between player skill levels. Whether it is raid DPS or adjusted DPS Summoner comes out on top of Red Mage.


Edit: Also, in more general terms, the "X is relatively more complicated to play and therefore should do more DPS" is really an archaic design philosophy. To start: in no modern MMO is any spec "complex." There are just not enough buttons to justify such a stance. The game is more diverse and enjoyable if every spec is competitive, and not because spec X has a few more oGCDs to weave.

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I never said it did, I'm talking in context of the OP's suggestion.