Noob question about the spell raise

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

You essentially said that choosing to raise after a fight, and releasing and going through the shortcut, is a semantic difference. In this case, shorthand for saying it barely matters, since no one's debating quality of rhetoric here.

But it DOES matter, because taking the raise gives a significant damage and healing down debuff which last for two minutes. And both ways of getting back are equally short if you factor in rez-lock. Taking the weakness by raising can make the run take appreciably longer.

So anyone in that situation should just release and use the shortcut. Doesn't make the idiot tank you played with right, because they CHOSE to accept your raise lol.

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You and I will just have to agree to disagree on what we consider a "significant damage and healing down debuff" is as well as how long we are perceiving 2 minutes to actually be. I'm not arguing that there is no stat penalty, I'm arguing the stat penalty is nowhere near detrimental enough to prevent you from carrying on with relatively no hiccups or add a significant amount of time to the dungeon run itself. Hence in my opinion it barely matters.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on what we consider a "significant damage and healing down debuff" is as well as how long we are perceiving 2 minutes to actually be. I'm not arguing that there is no stat penalty, I'm arguing the stat penalty is nowhere near detrimental enough to prevent you from carrying on with relatively no hiccups or add a significant amount of time to the dungeon run itself. Hence in my opinion it barely matters.

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You lose 25% of your main stat, that's basically a 25% damage penalty which is A LOT.

Let's say you do 10000 DPS, you'll be doing 7500 instead, it's a huge loss.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You lose 25% of your main stat, that's basically a 25% damage penalty which is A LOT.

Let's say you do 10000 DPS, you'll be doing 7500 instead, it's a huge loss.

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But the tank's DPS account for less than 25% of the total DPS to begin with so it means you lose 6.25% efficiency for 2 minutes: Which equal to 8.00 extra seconds.. I don't know where you personally draw the line to say something is substantially more than something else, but taking 10 sec to respawn + teleport back is already less efficient.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

But the tank's DPS account for less than 25% of the total DPS to begin with so it means you lose 6.25% efficiency for 2 minutes: Which equal to 8.00 extra seconds.. I don't know where you personally draw the line to say something is substantially more than something else, but taking 10 sec to respawn + teleport back is already less efficient.

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Less efficient on what aspect exactly? In any scenario raising someone when the enemies are dead or about to die is just a waste of time, mana and DPS, specially if it's not the end of the instance and the debuff will carry on to the next pull.

Also there are savepoints everywhere on instances so walking isn't a problem.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Less efficient on what aspect exactly? In any scenario raising someone when the enemies are dead or about to die is just a waste of time, mana and DPS, specially if it's not the end of the instance and the debuff will carry on to the next pull.

Also there are savepoints everywhere on instances so walking isn't a problem.

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A tank, having the -25% debuff, will still do some DPS. Taking a party of 4 as a whole, the lost potency of the group is reduced by 6.25% (giving the tank 25% of the party's DPS). Which mean the group would take 8 additional seconds to kill anything than they would normally.

So, the difference between accepting the raise and pulling the next set of mobs and not accepting the raise and teleport back and pull the next set of mobs is silly because you won't lose or win that much time.. Just the fading in/out of teleportation takes the bulk of that 8 seconds you try to win.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

A tank, having the -25% debuff, will still do some DPS. Taking a party of 4 as a whole, the lost potency of the group is reduced by 6.25% (giving the tank 25% of the party's DPS). Which mean the group would take 8 additional seconds to kill anything than they would normally.

So, the difference between accepting the raise and pulling the next set of mobs and not accepting the raise and teleport back and pull the next set of mobs is silly because you won't lose or win that much time.. Just the fading in/out of teleportation takes the bulk of that 8 seconds you try to win.

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You are giving a flat % of party damage without taking into account other factors such as DPS buffs, skill cooldowns, enemies remaining (which on AoE makes the DPS loss even bigger) etc. I think you understimate tanks damage.

Unless the difference is between saving or wiping the party, you shouldn't raise anyone when the fight is about to end.

From where did you take those numbers? (25% party dmg, 6.25% dmg lost and 8 aditional seconds)

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Just the fading in/out of teleportation takes the bulk of that 8 seconds you try to win.

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Raising also involves a brief blackout and being trapped in raiselock for several seconds. It is no faster than releasing and using the teleport if, as it was in this case, the party is literally standing in a cleared miniboss room. Taking the raise WILL make the remaining run slower.

Literally the only reason to take a raise, when you're down in a cleared mini-boss chamber with an active shortcut, is if having to click one extra Yes/No prompt on a shortcut is too much a damn chore for you.

Again, the tank here getting mad is funny and on the tank, because they could have turned the raise down.

If you die between bosses, yeah it's probably faster to just accept the raise.

PS: Also, if the party is about to finish the boss, it's faster for you to release before the fight ends. The healer can keep DPS'ing or keep the others alive to finish the boss, and you're ready to teleport to them the moment the shortcut becomes active.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

But the tank's DPS account for less than 25% of the total DPS to begin with

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Not from my experience.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Not from my experience.

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It should if the DPS are doing their job. At the end of a decent run where tanks and healers are contributing to damage in an effective way each DPS will typically be sitting at around 30-40% of damage done each, the tank about 15-25% and the healer about 5-15%. The larger the pulls, the larger the DPS share will be relative to the tank and healer. If the tank's numbers are higher it means that the DPS damage output is slower than it could be, or it was small pulls.

Back on topic, however, raising at the end of a boss fight isn't the best option. There's no difference in the recovery time between accepting the raise and taking the shortcut back since the shortcut takes you to the same place you died, so it's more efficient to take the shortcut then and avoid the penalty. Anywhere else, and raising becomes the more efficient option due to time lost running to catch up from the shortcut. Not that it's a large enough amount to yell at someone over or argue about in either case.

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Originally Posted by JeroenXP1

Today i learned the hard way not too use raise since this random tank in the dungeon told me not too in a rude way.. And i quickly noticed why cause of the debuff it gives.

So my question is if there is an actual use for this spell, like only in a raid environment ?

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Raise shall be use if the fight is not going to end anytime soon, even with debuff a extra pair of hand is still more dps than 3 person
Raise shall be use if the other healer have fallen in Raid and Alliance raid
if the fight is about to end, don't waste your swift cast, little bit running is healthy and keep you from "weakness"

btw, the tank is terrible who get mad because you use raise