[Spoilers] I’m irrevocably Unimpressed

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

words I guess

Our souls would live on and be made whole again. Again, souls work differently than mortal bodies. Our mortal bodies are, as emet puts it malformed. Our soul, if whole, is that of an ascian.

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Well if we consider this; and how WoL doesn't remember anything - then what made that person a 'person' is gone. Their personality is gone. The soul may live on, but the person does not. That is still considered a 'death.'

The WoL is the closest being beside the Ascians to being complete, and they don't remember their past life as the missing '14th' who left.

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Originally Posted by Enla

He literally wants to destroy all life on the Source and it's Shards to resurrect his people... Who are speculated to not only have contributed to the death of their star via excessive use of Creation but whom also killed themselves off by refusing to stop chasing the past. Their own actions caused Hydaelyn to be summoned. Their own actions saw their people sundered. Their own actions hold every bit the same amount of arrogance then as in now. The Ascians had a chance eons ago to save their star at great, but not civilization destroying expense and instead of licking their wounds, they plotted to steal life from people outside their society to resurrect those who died to create Zodiark.

At the point Zodiark had just been summoned and the Star saved they were not evil. Even when they proposed their plans of cultivating the star for reaping, you could understand where they were coming from as most humans would at least entertain the thoughts that were swirling in their heads. Yet they went through with it. Then, once it failed and the Star was split, they /kept/ on doing it. Killing in the millions if not billions to resurrect what had long since turned to ash. At that point they had long since expended the moral high ground. In a story so hero driven, they were never going to win when their end game was the death of everyone to restart anew.

Now if they /didn't/ require genocide to get their way there'd be more wiggle room to argue. But they do. So, yes, they are by most definitions evil even if you understand where they are coming from.

Ten characters. Also if you want to play a game from SE where the bad guy 'wins', go play FF6.

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FF13-2 is pretty good

The bad guy "wins" and it stays that way.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Genocide is okay if you don't think people are alive. What an interesting philosophical debate that would be.

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If your "existence" is the equivalent of a dusty old painting, then yes, genocide IS ok.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Think the OP means something along the lines of we lose but aren't killed. We retreat, go into hiding or something and try to regroup. Avengers: Infinity War style. But when you think about it, Shadowbringers did an excellent job of making us question who really are the good guys, and it's looking more and more that WE may actually be the bad guys. So, in that regard, the bad guys actually did win.

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They (we?) did that in our final fight with "Zenos" and to say it was poorly received would be an understatement.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

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It's a matter of perspective. That's the whole theme of this expansion. We come from a world that turns to the light for salvation and enter a world where light is so oppressive that darkness is their savior.

From the viewpoint of an Ascian, we are the bad guys and so is Hydaelyn. We are the remnants of their destruction and we fight to stop them from getting back their home. And we worship the "god" that caused all of their pain.

If you sympathize with the Ascians, then perhaps the bad guys did win.

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Originally Posted by mario710

I don't follow the 'genocide is bad' philosophy. It is clearly stated that we don't actually EXIST. Everyone and everything across the different shards are fragmented reflections.

Yes, genocide is awful, however, restoring a shade does not count as genocide. As Emet-Selch put it: "You are not actually alive to me."

Well, would you look at that? Guess what? He's right.

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Lol what...

We aren't shades at all. We're fragments of a soul that used to be one, but that doesn't suddenly mean we aren't alive just because mister immortal dude said we're not.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Seriously, I cannot believe genocide of all things was brought into this. Did any of you not read the story? We are not actually alive.

The rejoining absolutely should happen. We are fragmented souls? If all the shards rejoin the source, then we become whole? Are you ok with being a ghost?

Is it genocide to delete your entire portfolio of dead family members?

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Are you really gonna take the arrogant sanctimonious prattlings of a grief-ridden and angry immortal who, by the way, was part of the group whose original goal included sacrificing a portion of the new life on the original world to bring all of their dead back to life, as an absolute truth? Are we just gonna pretend that part didn't happen and assume his petty little jabs are the Word of Truth? Come on.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Well if we consider this; and how WoL doesn't remember anything - then what made that person a 'person' is gone. Their personality is gone. The soul may live on, but the person does not. That is still considered a 'death.'

The WoL is the closest being beside the Ascians to being complete, and they don't remember their past life as the missing '14th' who left.

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more words for sure

I can't wait until we see the devlopment, rather the end of this specific storyline. I think we will eventually regain our memories from that time, obviously we will keep living as we are, but it will further serve to 'humanize' the ascians, and what we all once were. I hope we actually end up killing both of the primals. Until they are dead we will never be the masters of our own destiny. It looks like Hydaelyn just keeps plucking our soul specifically and making it her champion over and over. I would rather stop that cycle.

I'm pretty sure this guy is trolling, he has to be. Surely people don't think this.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

more words for sure

I can't wait until we see the devlopment, rather the end of this specific storyline. I think we will eventually regain our memories from that time, obviously we will keep living as we are, but it will further serve to 'humanize' the ascians, and what we all once were. I hope we actually end up killing both of the primals. Until they are dead we will never be the masters of our own destiny. It looks like Hydaelyn just keeps plucking our soul specifically and making it her champion over and over. I would rather stop that cycle.

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Hidden wordssss.

I think we actually might have created Hydalen if I remember correctly the one 'asican' we see in amaurot had a name that was actually pretty close to the point it seemed like Hydalen was named after them. I am very intrigued none the less to see who we really were!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

My message is definitely not too short..

They weren't killing anybody though, they volunteered to be sacrificed to save their society as a whole. After the split, they do not see what they are doing now as actually killing anybody either. All life as it is now are as Emet put it, malformed creations. Everyone from the shards is just a piece of someone from the source's soul. Rather they are pieces of what was once a single soul of what ascian race was, as shown when Emet thought he saw the WoL as their 'original' self.

The WoL is hinted at once playing an important part in the past before the split, Emet recognized them. To clarify they do not see the people of today's world(s) as people. They want to sacrifice them to make them whole again, as they once were. They are thinking on a grander scale, we are talking souls here not the mortal bodies. Unfortunately, even if they did successfully unify all the worlds into the source, and bring back the old. The same thing would just happen again.

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I really wish they'd allow spoiler characters to count for the post limit... SE why... ;__;

I never said their sacrifice was wrong though. In that moment they were upstanding and very noble for that sacrifice... And yet in order to bring them back it is /very/ clearly stated that the Amaurotines would cultivate what was left of their world and sacrifice it. This was before the sundering. Before any reflections had been made and while many of their own still lived, as a huge number had to also be sacrificed to bring about Hydaelyn. Even if we get into the whole 'well we're just reflections' argument, which honestly holds very little weight as those reflections have become their own separate people, at that time they were killing fulling formed beings to suit their needs. Those who were still alive from the other Civilizations they had ignored in particular. Again, this is all PRE-SUNDERING. They were fully on board with geoncide even before their convenient fridge logic gave them an out.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Lol what

We aren't shades at all. We're fragments of a soul that used to be one, but that doesn't suddenly mean we aren't alive just because mister immortal dude said we're not.

Are you really gonna take the self-important, arrogant, sanctimonious prattlings of a grief-ridden and angry immortal who, by the way, was part of the group whose original goal included sacrificing a portion of the new life on the original world to bring all of their dead back to life? Are we just gonna pretend that part didn't happen?

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Did you not read the story? The ones who were to be sacrificed were WILLING. What is there to argue? We are diluted shades.

What does it matter though? The calamities will come either way.