Add ilv requirement please in ShB[Dev Request]

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Unless it's HQ, NQ vendor gear is actually weaker than the previous dungeon's gear, so it'd be having the opposite effect; you'd have people growing weaker than if they just kept the previous dungeon's gear.

ilvl checks are important, but they don't need to be anywhere near as tight as that.

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You can have some lenience such as dropping it down a bit. So that you can use for example Shisui's 270 stuff in Bardaam's in lieu of vendor 273.

Perhaps you can even dip down further and allow the level 62 ilevel 265 stuff in Bardaam's too.

Since it's not particularly hard to keep up on gear level requirements.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I don't necessarily disagree with the request, but the leveling dungeons are part of the MSQ, and so for new players to be suddenly told, "You need to go farm old dungeons and / or purchase vendor or play gear to meet the ilevel requirements of the new leveling dungeons," is off-putting, to say the least.

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MSQ already implements ilevel checks for max level content.

Having it apply to leveling content wouldn't be out of place. Especially not since MSQ literally throws HQ gear at you. Players shouldn't have difficulty meeting ilevel requirements for leveling content.

To say nothing about you know... Making sure you are actually an effective participant in said leveling content.

Even more so given that ShB are bringing in the Trusts to allow people to solo the MSQ dungeons, so having some requirement for players to be able to meet some minimum standards for DF play isn't exactly going to be a big issue blocking people from MSQ advancement (Which again, should be gearing them up anyway)

The fact that they will eventually have to gear up for content beyond X.0 MSQ in a way that isn't "Just buy some stuff from the vendor using Gil" and is instead relating to farming stuff like Centurio seals, Tomestones, dungeon gear, purchasing/making crafted gear, grinding out "Eureka" content or doing previous raids should also be a sign that you should be preparing players for maintaining their gear anyway as they will need to do it for MSQ content outside of the leveling duties.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

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Baelsar's Wall, while it is part of the MSQ, is not a leveling dungeon. It is an end game dungeon. Those two kinds of dungeons are on very different progression paths, and accordingly, appeal to very different kinds of players. Baelsar's Wall follows a linear gear progression, while leveling dungeons do not. As a player, if you decide to play the end game of an MMO, you know what you're signing up for: a gear treadmill. Now the leveling dungeons do appeal to people who just want to experience the new expansion's story, and that's why requirements are absent.

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Originally Posted by Seraph522

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It is problematic to view all game content and systems in an amalgamated whole; for different content does appeal to different players. In this context, there are a sizable number of players who buy the expansion, play to the level cap, then quit. It is these players who will balk at farming and / or buying gear to do a dungeon, and the developers know it. Which is why there are no ilevel requirements for entry. So an upscale, while it may not fit some systems, does alleviate the difficulties with the players who only level to cap once, then quit.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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I never said it would be out of place, I said it would be off-putting to players who buy the expansion, level to cap, then quit until the next expansion (and, of course, in this game, do all the content they miss a month before the next expansion). All of those players would just quit and never come back when hit with ilevel gates. That's not something S-E wants, so the ilevel gates do not exist for that subset of content.

Yes this needs to happen. One big reason I despise leveling roulette is because outside of the lvl30 and below dungeons there is always someone who is wearing way way way below the gear requirements. Setting this now will make people realize they need to be somewhat geared to run the dungeon properly.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I don't necessarily disagree with the request, but the leveling dungeons are part of the MSQ, and so for new players to be suddenly told, "You need to go farm old dungeons and / or purchase vendor or play gear to meet the ilevel requirements of the new leveling dungeons," is off-putting, to say the least. In fact, this is likely why there are no ilevel requirements as it is, for S-E does not want players to quit the game because they have to do that, when they just want a story experience. What I think is a much more prudent change, is an ilevel upscale, assuming you meet the dungeon's physical level requirement.

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In my experience, it tends to be the veteran players that already have job(s) at max level that go into leveling dungeons in shoddy gear. Not the babies, usually (though, that can happen). But, the MSQ checks your item level during the cap for each expansion with trials and MSQ dungeons. Baelsar’s Wall has an i230 requirement—if you can’t meet at least that for Sirensong Sea, you don’t need to be in there. (And even i230 I don’t think is enough; I’d push it to i240 or i250 at least).
Newbies going through the MSQ receive coffers with i240 gear in it during 3.x (both accessory coffers and left-side; and they get a weapon option), so they will easily meet Baelsar’s check. After that, it’s just accepting the HQ i255 pieces from the SB MSQ/supplementing with i260 Shire).

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Baelsar's Wall, while it is part of the MSQ, is not a leveling dungeon. It is an end game dungeon. Those two kinds of dungeons are on very different progression paths, and accordingly, appeal to very different kinds of players. Baelsar's Wall follows a linear gear progression, while leveling dungeons do not. As a player, if you decide to play the end game of an MMO, you know what you're signing up for: a gear treadmill. Now the leveling dungeons do appeal to people who just want to experience the new expansion's story, and that's why requirements are absent.

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Uh, you have to go through Baelsar’s Wall to even get to Stormblood’s story... so your “leveling dungeons appeal to people who want to experience the story” isn’t really an adequate defense of no requirements... because Baelsar’s Wall is part of the story, yet still has requirements. The same will be said for the Ghimlyt Dark come Shadowbringers.

Even if players opted to do no other “end-game dungeons”, there are still MSQ required ones they have to do—and those have item level restrictions/gating on them. Don’t meet the requirements, you have to gear up and come back later. And the requirements are already extremely lenient—i230 for Baelsar’s when the cap was i270.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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I feel like there is a big point several of you are missing. I am not talking about end-game MSQ dungeons (like the oft referenced Baelsar's Wall), but leveling dungeons. They are two very, very different animals. Citing Baelsar's Wall ilevel gate doesn't disprove anything that I have said, as the players who are off-put from ilevel gates, do not get there until just before the next expansion launches.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I don't necessarily disagree with the request, but the leveling dungeons are part of the MSQ, and so for new players to be suddenly told, "You need to go farm old dungeons and / or purchase vendor or play gear to meet the ilevel requirements of the new leveling dungeons," is off-putting, to say the least. In fact, this is likely why there are no ilevel requirements as it is, for S-E does not want players to quit the game because they have to do that, when they just want a story experience.

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-New players ARE suddenly told they need more gear, at 50, 60 and at 70 dungeons, which do have ilv requirements.
-This wouldn't apply to new players anyway because they're given free quest rewards adequate for the dungeons. This only applies to players leveling new classes and too lazy to actually put gear on them.
-If a new player quit the game because they were told to equip their quest rewards, maybe this isn't the game for them.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I feel like there is a big point several of you are missing. I am not talking about end-game MSQ dungeons (like the oft referenced Baelsar's Wall), but leveling dungeons. They are two very, very different animals. Citing Baelsar's Wall ilevel gate doesn't disprove anything that I have said, as the players who are off-put from ilevel gates, do not get there until just before the next expansion launches.

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Yeah, the “end-game” dungeons are an absolute joke in terms of the amount of outgoing damage they offer—leveling dungeons have far stricter syncs, and, because of that, hit much harder. Especially on someone who is undergeared. All the more reason to have item level requirements on them, honestly.

Your “reason” for no requirements is “they don’t want to gate players out of the story”—but the story already gates players. That’s what people are trying to tell you, and I think you’re missing that. It doesn’t matter that the gating is at the different level caps for an expansion; it’s still there, and you cannot progress without meeting it. The only way to skip it is to shell out cash for a story skip, but that doesn’t work for current expansions—otherwise, you have to meet the requirements.

Considering how easy it is to acquire decent gear in this game, the restrictions should be on more than just “expert” dungeons. Otherwise, you end up with tanks in Sirensong Sea in i200 Antiquated gear, accessories from ARR, or—even better—an Augmented Ironworks weapon in Sirensong.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I feel like there is a big point several of you are missing. I am not talking about end-game MSQ dungeons (like the oft referenced Baelsar's Wall), but leveling dungeons. They are two very, very different animals. Citing Baelsar's Wall ilevel gate doesn't disprove anything that I have said, as the players who are off-put from ilevel gates, do not get there until just before the next expansion launches.

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from SB start to Sirensong you get given plenty of ilv 255 gear to meet a ilv requirement of ilv 245 if a person were to use a jump potion they get given better gear with ilv 260 shire gear no new or returning person(a returner is either going to jump potion or had done Bealsar's wall) will have trouble with such a requirement the people this requirement will affect the most are those leveling alt jobs at which point they should know how useful gear is while leveling and it would be down to that player to get it.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I feel like there is a big point several of you are missing. I am not talking about end-game MSQ dungeons (like the oft referenced Baelsar's Wall), but leveling dungeons. They are two very, very different animals. Citing Baelsar's Wall ilevel gate doesn't disprove anything that I have said, as the players who are off-put from ilevel gates, do not get there until just before the next expansion launches.

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Well, the fact remains, that you're talking about people rushing through MSQ and leveling via dungeons.

These "End-Game" dungeons of previous expansions, do end up in "Leveling Roulettes" and so can be considered Leveling Dungeons.

In addition, they are required for MSQ progression. If you can't meet the requirements for Baelsar's Wall, you literally cannot get to a point in the MSQ where Sirensong Sea is available.

However, if you have a job that beats Baelsar's Wall and gets you to the point where you unlock Sirensong Sea, you can now queue up in your level 1 starter gear and enter Sirensong Sea.

In what world does this make sense? That the ilevel requirements to progress to a point in the MSQ is not then shared by the content that required you to meet those previous ilevel requirements to access in the first place?

Even if players just stopped playing until the next expansion when they met a ilevel restriction... They'd still have to then actually gear up to progress the MSQ to enter the new expansion by going through these "End-Game" dungeons as is and again, with more effort than "Just buy some vendor stuff if you're an idiot and not picking the gear the MSQ literally gives you" because unless you can grab the max level vendor stuff from the new expansion, the previous expansions "End-Game" content will have a higher bar than what is achieved through easy access gear (I.e. Go buy stuff from vendor for Gil)

So, essentially the case that you're arguing is that... If there were some (Not particularly stressing) min ilevel requirements for leveling dungeons (That likely won't impact 99.99% of players going through the MSQ and picking up the gear it gives out) that suddenly a significant playerbase will just quit day 1 of a new expansion and wait until the following one to... Then still need to obtain min ilevel requirements for MSQ dungeons anyway irregardless of if "Leveling" dungeons needed min ilevel gear due to the presence of the "End-Game" MSQ dungeons with ilevel requirements.

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Originally Posted by Yshal

I feel like it wouldn't be such a large issue if people didn't expect tanks to always mass pull.

I tend to only pull one pack at a time if I'm not familiar with a dungeon or if the healer or dps look a little under geared. So my dungeon takes like 5 minutes longer? Big whoop.

If a tank is getting 1 shot or a healer is running oom, sure there's an issue. But we're talking about slower clear speeds right? We're not talking about a wipe fest?

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It's not just a case of a slower clear, but mental stress.

I said my DRK was on point. She realized quickly she was undergeared and adjusted her pulls and was good about hitting her cooldowns and avoiding the bad. But there are just certain mobs Doma Castle that are gonna hit hard BY THEMSELVES. There are certain spots in Doma where you are going to get a huge pack regardless of how slow the tank pulls.

There's a problem with an appropriately geared AST (full Yanxian gear, level 69 in a level 67 dungeon) has to chain heal and use less efficient big heals to keep her standing when fighting a small pull of trash mobs. That is unnecessary mental stress on both the healer and the rest of the group that just shouldn't happen.

I expect that kind of thing from Primal fight, not a normal dungeon.