The Aetherophysics of Soul Shenanigans (4.4 SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

We are not.

I'm operating under the assumption (that sentence was rife with ifs and buts and assumptions) that the developers probably know that we the players know how awkward it would be for Gaius be walking around like, "This is my trophy. I killed this." when all he really did was beat up a meat puppet until its Ascian abandoned it for the rift. They wanted to re-introduce him as the Shadowhunter, right? If those aren't kills ... is he? Is he fluffing up his resume? Is he really just Shadowannoyer? Please Look Forward to It!

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Much as I laughed, surely Gaius must think he has done the job thoroughly? I mean, would he feasibly collect trophies if he wasn't sure? In instances where we seen Ascians / Echo-imbued dying, as you've already mentioned, we see them reappear straight away. Nabriales does. Solus does. Even Wurr does. Ascians just can't resist popping back up to say "Nuuuur, can't kill me, brah". In those circumstances, a trophy from a meat puppet would instantly be seen as worthless to Gaius, I think.


Edit: There is still plenty of uncertainty, but perhaps skewing towards, yes, these really are confirmed kills.

On the subject of soul shenanigans, there was also the time Estinien became Nidhogg's shade: the whole possession thing included full transformations. Not to mention Midgardsormr even turned into a soul orb to manifest as a ghostly version of his own corpse once, and could animate the dead dragons near him. The latter seems strongly implied to have a form of Echo (some lines of Omega even support this).

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Not to mention Midgardsormr even turned into a soul orb to manifest as a ghostly version of his own corpse once, and could animate the dead dragons near him. The latter seems strongly implied to have a form of Echo (some lines of Omega even support this).

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Interesting thought - maybe he doesn't have Hydaelyn's Echo but that of his home planet? And that's why he had to seek out some kind of arrangement with her?

Do we have reason to believe that Solus in the final cutscene actually looked like a young version of the original Solus? And not just a completely random young man that Solus happened to possess after he expired? Varis's apparent acceptance that he was his grandfather is not enough; there are many reasons why Varis would be willing to believe, aside from physical appearance.

And speaking of physical appearance, I don't think that the appearance of an Ascian when not inhabiting a host is necessarily the "true" form of that Ascian. I don't think there's anything significant about Solus still looking like the same young man who'd just been shot; he kept the same for simply as a matter of convenience. Ascians can probably choose to change the appearance of their host, but rarely bother.

One thing I've been wondering is whether an Ascian, regardless of mask color, can VOLUNTARILY leave a host once they've possessed one. If I'm not mistake, every instance where we've seen an Ascian abandon a host has involved someone beating the Ascian out of that host, most of the time lethally. Have we ever seen an Ascian just up and leave a host body, willy nilly? If they cannot, it adds a lot of weight to the decision to possess a host body, as they could be settling in for a long haul. It makes me wonder if Solus had no choice but to live out his host's long life before he was freed by death by old age...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

They wanted to re-introduce him as the Shadowhunter, right? If those aren't kills ... is he? Is he fluffing up his resume? Is he really just Shadowannoyer? Please Look Forward to It!

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I'm not sure I'd consider beating up red-mask hosts as fluffing. It's still pretty bad-ass. Ascians are tough customers, with powerful magic. He's still a Shadowslayer - it's just that "slaying" isn't as signficant for Ascians as it is for mortal beings. Heck, I'd be surprised if even most of the black masks he carries were permanently killed - surely many of them were able to find corpses to inhabit after Gaius cut them down. It is a bit sobering to wonder, though, how many of the red masks were inhabiting still-living hosts, ala Thancred. It's unlikely they were still living after Gaius finished with them, and even if Gaius knew he'd killed an "innocent" host, I doubt he'd lose much sleep over it. Necessary measures, and all that...

The one thing that does not sit well with me about it being confirmed red mask kills is that then it leaves one solid question: how? Those are an ordeal for -us- Crystal-blessed to kill, and there are very few ways to manage that. But banishing them, that is still quite an accomplishment, and it still removes them from their power (exposing the snake as a snake keeps it from still hunting there, after all).

That said, if it is as Lineage says, and then once possessing someone they're stuck there... then tying down two to Garlemald is a very sharp, double-edged blade. Certainly they can weave the manipulation better, but it makes it harder for them to cut and run if it -has- to come down to a death (even if, cf. how we free Thancred, in that circumstance a blade of light will not be a kill).

I do think that the face worn is Solus' though, but more because else the familial references would fall even flatter. The references are fairly consistent though: Solus claims to know Varis has always been easy to read, and how by now he should know better. So based on that, I would wager that at some point they were family (or close enough), and that the Galvus family line is just inordinately messed up even before we throw ascian... lineage? Influence? Into the mix. Having 'the right face' would have been another way to sell the connection... except Varis is upset that his grand plan is not- and never was- his.

"Necessary measures, and all that" cut many awful ways.

Once you know what they are and how to look for them, it doesn't seem too hard to gank a black mask. Even taking into account how strong and special we're supposed to be, we pulled it off our first week on the job. (Presumably, given that his crystal fell out of his pocket and dissolved.)

Not only did Gaius have a front row seat to our slapfight with Lahabrea, assuming he still has friends anywhere, it might not be too difficult to get word of the Warrior of Light's exploits and keep apprised of the latest goings on. (And thereby extrapolate some pro tips.) This would be especially true if my favorite headcanon turns out to be accurate: that Nero went back to watch Ultima in action, pulled Gaius out of the fire, and just never brought it up. (Because you never asked, Garlond!) Nero would be able to smuggle Gaius a wealth of valuable information and technology.

Overlords, I grant you, would theoretically still pose quite a challenge. But with proper resources, could the Black Wolf live up to it? If anyone... There's something thrilling about the idea of the pack sniffing out and closing in on Ascians whose machinations in motion and having the means to pull it off. We wouldn't be the only ones getting anything done. We wouldn't be the only ones with worthwhile ideas.

Not that I think this is any more a theory than "Bwahah wouldn't it be funny if Nero knew?" but imagine a few highly skilled vagabonds with esoteric knowledge whipping up contraptions on the fly and coming out of nowhere just as an Ascian makes an appearance. Magitek field generators, anima transmigration jammers, aetherochemical manipulation dampners... gunblade snipes the crystal of darkness out of the air as they try to escape.

(Rocl's turned me on to the idea that it'd be delicious irony if they'd weaponized Sabik somehow.)

It's just more interesting than the idea that Gaius is keeping masks from Ascians he might see again. What if he kills the same one multiple times? Treat it like the trading card from a chocolate frog? "Bah. Fandaniel. Already got this one." <throws it on the fire with the corpses who died for nothing>

More likely? Ehehe... [breath] no.

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Originally Posted by SynthielLyrin

The one thing that does not sit well with me about it being confirmed red mask kills is that then it leaves one solid question: how? Those are an ordeal for -us- Crystal-blessed to kill, and there are very few ways to manage that. But banishing them, that is still quite an accomplishment, and it still removes them from their power (exposing the snake as a snake keeps it from still hunting there, after all).

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The Heart of Sabik

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Not only did Gaius have a front row seat to our slapfight with Lahabrea, assuming he still has friends anywhere, it might not be too difficult to get word of the Warrior of Light's exploits and keep apprised of the latest goings on. (And thereby extrapolate some pro tips.) This would be especially true if my favorite headcanon turns out to be accurate: that Nero went back to watch Ultima in action, pulled Gaius out of the fire, and just never brought it up. (Because you never asked, Garlond!) Nero would be able to smuggle Gaius a wealth of valuable information and technology.

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He'd also be able to use the Ivy's network.

Think it was stated that Ascians used to be mortals with echos that served Hydaelyn but at some point in their lifetime they decided to defect to serve the darkness on their own volition, after they learned the truth or somesuch.

Mortals with the Echo, yes. People who served Hydaleyn? That's never been specified anywhere. If anything, the opposite is what most people are guessing. That the Ascians were gifted the Echo by Zodiark and are serving him.

Lahabrea suggested that he was once subject to "Hydaelyn's walls" until he was "freed" by Zodiark, so that's a strong suggestion that the black-robed Ascians are post-sundering ex-mortals "raised up" to higher power by the Darkness. This also fits well with that there exists one overlord from each dimension. However, that they were specifically Echo users before this, or that they are in fact ex-Warriors of Light is a logical leap ... but a leap nonetheless. It might not be so specific at all. The Sahagin elder wasn't anything special, metaphysically.

What people are remembering is from 1.x; one line about one historical figure from the age of the great floods who "fell into a deep despair and turned up with the enemy." Sure, that might be a hint that the Ascians are former Warriors of Light, or it might just have been a foreshadowing "Hey, watch out for your allies if they're feeling vulnerable, because that's how you get possessed by Ascians." (Thancred).