DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

Put me in the garbage tier then. I can't use a parser. I'm still learning DPS classes and pat myself on the back for doing the job right or try to (there's online guides for that). There's probably plenty of garbage DPS like me you run into DF because it doesn't discriminate. When you label random players negatively, you're only making yourself uncomfortable around them or even just the thought of playing with them. I don't wanna carry such baggage around. I'm just trying to play my game, kill it, feel good about myself. Nobody got time thinking toxic thoughts when they tryna have fun.

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Uhm, Kaiva isn’t calling anyone garbage-tier. However, if you are in a piece of content (such as V8S) doing 4,000 DPS, then yeah, there is a huge problem there. As I said in my post above, there are a lot of different things to consider when you look at a DPS amount (gear, job, party comp, kill time, deaths, etc.). To just look at a number without context is unfair, and a very poor analysis.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Well yeah, that was pretty much the point - I took that particular comment at face value, simplified the idea behind discussion, and made it purely about straight damage. Naturally, there are always other factors to take in consideration, namely everything that you just mentioned. But at the end of the day, I'm just posing the question for a general consensus about it - not really thinking about all that extra stuff that one normally does need to think about during a raid.

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It’s not just during a raid—a DPS with inferior/outdated gear matched up against a DPS with BiS is going to do significantly less damage regardless of what type of content you’re in, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are a trash player. You can’t just post a number and say “Is this trash or not” without considering the factors that I listed. To do so is unfair to the person you are judging.

if any dps is doing less than 4k at i355on a dummy then they are pretty bad

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s not just during a raid—a DPS with inferior/outdated gear matched up against a DPS with BiS is going to do significantly less damage regardless of what type of content you’re in, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are a trash player. You can’t just post a number and say “Is this trash or not” without considering the factors that I listed. To do so is unfair to the person you are judging.

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But is it really unfair, though? We are months removed from the initial Sigmascape release. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the consensus is that DPS stuck at 4k is a major problem for raiding? Even with all the mechanics taken into account, it is my understanding that the harder hitting DPS should be in the high 4ks - near 6k, even in PUG environments.

The way I see it, I can do 4k dps as a tank and I'm not that good. So if a dps in end game with similar/better gear than me is doing similar/worse dps than me, then they're about as good, or even worse than, a tank that isn't that good.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Uh, if you don’t have “no stupid parser” telling you what a person’s DPS is, then how do you know if they are doing poorly or not? This makes no sense. You can’t possibly know how much damage a person is doing without a parser...unless you stop in the middle of the fight and try to individually calculate everything in the Battle Log. To which I say, good luck with that.

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Wow...you seriously don't know how?

Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out.

Last thing I want to do is give you guys more ammo.

*Moves on*


EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

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Enmity is definitely not a good indicator on DPS. I can be in 8th and still be doing the 2nd highest damage of the party due to Diversion. If DPS are dumping/mitigating aggro properly, then yes, emnity is a terrible indicator of where DPS are standing.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Wow...you seriously don't know how?

EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

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Absolutely not.

Enmity is absolutely, positively, not a sign of how much DPS someone is doing. At all.

I've had people ride me on enmity and they were last on the list, and below tanks. I'm not going to say "lul they're bad" because everyone needs a space to work to improve, but this is a fallacious statement that won't tell you anything other than who is/is not using their enmity dumps (and people should be! It boosts raid DPS to not have your tank sitting in tank stance the entire time, and trying to allow them as much possible space to push their own damage to beat enrage).

And this is from someone who has had a 4k output MNK riding my enmity, as doing an output of 4.3k as a tank on a fight, while the 7k BLM is close to last on the list. It's really not an indicator of damage output, not in the least and not at all and should never be used to gauge this information.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Wow...you seriously don't know how?

Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out.

EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

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LOL. THAT’S A GOOD ONE.

Enmity =/= damage. If that were the case, then WHMs in God Kefka would have higher damage than all the DPS lol. Tanks would have the highest amount of damage, since they are always top on the enmity list (or should be). Please. I can’t even believe that you’re serious right now.

You’ve been around on the OF long enough to have seen the “aggro =/= DPS” argument before, I’m sure. So either you ignored it, you’re blatantly trolling right now, or you’re just being deliberately obtuse.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

*Moves on*

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How’s that working for ya?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But is it really unfair, though? We are months removed from the initial Sigmascape release. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the consensus is that DPS stuck at 4k is a major problem for raiding? Even with all the mechanics taken into account, it is my understanding that the harder hitting DPS should be in the high 4ks - near 6k, even in PUG environments.

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What is this DPS’ gear? Are they still in 340 gear? Is their gear up to date? Did they die? I’m not talking in just Savage content.

You always have to consider these factors, Kaiva. You cannot just blindly look at a number and say “Yep, that’s trash” or “Nope, that’s really good” and not research the why. This is the mistake a lot of people make when they look at FFLogs—they don’t look any deeper than the front page and its numbers. They don’t research “Why did this person only have 9th percentile on V6S”; they just look at a 4,000 DPS value and say “Well, they’re trash!”...and don’t consider that maybe that 4k DPS died 3 times to mechanics, or to lack of healing; or they were in severely outdated gear (which does happen—I have seen players in outdated/previous patch gear in Savage before).

Or, are you going to tell me that my most recent God Kefka parse shows that I’m a trash-tier BRD because I didn’t hit 5,000+ DPS? Completely ignoring the fact that I was killed twice from blatant lack of healing or that I didn’t have a DRG (which is about ~500 damage lost between Disembowel, Litany, and Dragon Sight)?

Context is extremely important. You cannot ignore it.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

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Please, please tell me you aren't using the enmity bar to determine DPS. If you are, well, you truly are clueless.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Wow...you seriously don't know how?

Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out.

Last thing I want to do is give you guys more ammo.

*Moves on*


EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

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What so if I use Lucid Dreaming my dps is halfed I have been playing wrong the whole time!