PvP Needs An Endgame Once Again

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Again, it's really not about trying to split up queues, though I would question why there's a need for a separate Normal/Savage raid then? Why is there a line in the sand for "leveling" and "endgame" instances?... I highly disagree with the directions the whole system overall was taken to facilitate that. Why "simplify" something that wasn't complex to begin with?

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The normal/savage thing is pretty interesting. I think it happened because of alisaie. I didn't do coil (i came in at the tail end of 2.0) and one of the big things about the story there is that in the msq, you never see Alisaie again after the early go to three nations quests. So you had one character that was literally ignored if you didn't raid, and in end of HW/SB they started to throw her in our faces more so we were reminded Alphinaux had a sister. So they kind of realized that in order to make her relevant they couldn't just have characters whose only characterization was in endgame raids. Same with Louisoix, in order for them to be able to use characters you can't just segment them off via game types.

As for complex, yeah 3.0 was more complex. many classes needed access to the full pve kit and additional pvp actions. That complexity led to a diff n performance, same as in pve.

Rephrase that to win rates and I agree, that would be closest thing to skill rating. Wins alone arent enough. To progress to rated, they have to had (maybe) above 70% win rate. It will discourage at least alts purposely losing on rated, the mutual wintraders would still be there and can be trimmed further.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think it happened because of alisaie.

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It had more to do with the fact that Coil was the conclusion to the 1.0 MSQ. Legacy players who only wanted to experience the story, without dedicating time to clearing difficult content, couldn't see the conclusion to the questing they had been doing prior to the 1.0 servers being shut down.

They could use very loose feast ranking algorithms for frontline. You don't usually make alts for frontline, because players want the rewards, so it would be less exploitable. It would need a system to exclude premade parties with pvp players from that algorithms or like I said, make it very loose so they can still get pop. And yes, Im talking about feast rating, not your frontline winrate. It would still have flaws obviously, because not everyone plays feast.

But to see that even 8vs8 feast can match you up with 8 diamonds vs 8 unranked, I guess not..xD

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Unranked is dead though, so you'd actually be further gating people from playing ranked when getting queues at Bronze/Silver a few weeks after the season starts is already difficult enough.

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This is another example of the problems with the Feast. I used to love it myself, but enough questionable changes and failure to address the most simple QoL concerns (like rating decay) only drove me and others away from it. And again, only SE is the one calling it their "Premier" PvP at this point. They've got a long way to go to consider that anything approaching serious, especially after all they've done til now. I have hopes for the coming season, but I'm honestly lifelining at this point. Sat out of S4 in protest to the chat ban, just stopped mid way through 5 for lack of interest, and I deliberately have only gotten to Bronze for the title in 6 and didn't miss it after.

Setting that aside for a moment, I wanted to address the thing about being abused. First, whatever was said, wherever it was said, wasn't right. I know SCH wasn't looked upon favorably (then), as were some of the other jobs that now excel in the Feast. Data Center experiences may vary, but I'd won with the "bad" comps and lost with the "good" ones plenty of times. I made tons of mistakes. I took, and still take risks (calculated, but still a risk). Sure, some people got mouthy, but it was a rare thing. To that, I ask - and I mean nothing bad in asking, please understand - what might you possibly have been doing/not doing to become such a polarized target for player abuse? Each season of course had that guy that you wouldn't want to run into on your team, but assuming for a moment that you weren't that guy, what then could make you such a popular target for players to be so nasty? I can't stress enough that I'm not trying to be rude in asking, but it really feels like there's more to that story, and I'm only asking to gain a better understanding.

Moving on from that, while I understand it's perhaps uncommon, for the person that said it, I have directed and led teams of randoms many times now to victory. Sure, it's a lot of work. It's absolutely frustrating when they don't listen, even without some of the outliers I mentioned before (the "just here for" types and so on). Fact is though, it's possible. Hell I can at least talk to my team there. I've noticed however many people don't step up. It's a lot of responsibility, and no one wants that on their head if you lose, but you can't complain it's impossible to direct a large team, yet never attempt to. You'd be amazed how simple it actually is, and how easily most people comply.

Lastly, for those claiming 3.x was more complex, please tell me what was hard to understand about your same job kit at max level with roughly 6 additional PvP skills vs your job condensed to 9 buttons, your combos all on 1 button (again, sensible for melees, but something like BRD/MCH just isn't meant to work that way), key skills just absent, sprint now being optional, cc skills you normally have in your PvE kit now missing, some skills not interacting with your gauge the same way they do in PvE, and now watered down, universal PvP skills?

SMN it felt like I had more defensives in previous seasons; ability to go peel-bot mode, in a raid atm so can't really expand atm but you get where I'm going. Some jobs had a bit more depth to them.

And I was just bad. Like nothing else. Obviously at Plat the amount of points you lose isn't much, at Diamond it is. So get matched with diamonds -> cost them points = you're going to get flamed. Hard.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

SMN it felt like I had more defensives in previous seasons; ability to go peel-bot mode, in a raid atm so can't really expand atm but you get where I'm going. Some jobs had a bit more depth to them.

And I was just bad. Like nothing else. Obviously at Plat the amount of points you lose isn't much, at Diamond it is. So get matched with diamonds -> cost them points = you're going to get flamed. Hard.

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That happens, but it's no excuse to abuse someone. What's done is done, I understand that, but players need to stop and remember that they themselves aren't perfect. If anyone, especially at Plat/Diamond level doesn't grasp that, they're just not being very realisitc, and only harming themselves driving others away from the mode.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Unranked is dead though, so you'd actually be further gating people from playing ranked when getting queues at Bronze/Silver a few weeks after the season starts is already difficult enough.

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That's part of why I said it, to make it not dead any more. If something is a requirement it means it needs to be played.

If queues are that bad in ranked (you're right, I have to stop at silver because can't get matches any more) then I think progression through ranks should be based more on some individual metric rather than team win or loss, and you can put everyone into the same queue then instead of only your rank+1.

I know that makes downsides to match quality, but can't get matches at all in the current system if joining season late. I like to play other content first, the new content they add in patches...

Personally I would like to see them do another long event like the Garo event because that event literally brought PVP back to life and for a few months PVP was actually doable and it usually wasn't hard to find matches. Now things like the Feast are back to 30+ minute queues again making doing the content/earning the mounts and stuff almost impossible. Another suggestion could be having a set of relic gear for PVP that you can earn through accomplishing certain tasks or a system where you need to meet requirements kind of like the books from previous relic gear. Each gear upgrade would be enough to keep people returning each upgrade and keep PVP going steady.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

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I feel like you skipped over the main flaw I found though - once people are attuned for ranked (which won't really be that many people), unranked gets longer and longer queues, so you'd be gating people from ranked whilst also passively gating them from unranked because they'll struggle to get the required wins to queue ranked. This is no way also makes ranked more appealing to play, it actually may even just prevent more people coming into it because they can't be bothered to win 50 games of clown fiesta unranked feast or w.e