PvP Needs An Endgame Once Again

**ThirdChild_ZKI** · 12-31-2017 07:36 AM

Before I begin, let me preface by saying I am NOT saying PvP needs to be an endgame activity ONLY again. Also, while perhaps this may or may not be an issue for other regions, this is a very real issue in NA regions, and I would ask any devs or reps to understand that and read it with that in mind, and for everyone, devs, reps, and players alike to please respect what is said within, whether in agreement or not.

Now then, in a discussion earlier today, I pinpointed the fact that while PvP has seen an increase in activity - for a number of reasons since 3.5 to present - the increase has largely catered to and accommodated newer players who have taken to it as an alternative method of leveling, especially for DPS players that tire of lengthy queues for PvE content. This isn't a bad thing at all, and it's good to see an increased interest in PvP even from lower-leveled/still-leveling players. The problem that has resulted however is that avid PvP players who enjoy/enjoyed PvP as an endgame activity have been displaced and alienated, suddenly thrust into matches with players who may perhaps only hold a casual interest, or are only interested in leveling. Imagine for a moment, for the sake of perspective, that a Savage-ready DPS were thrown into say, O3S with a still-leveling tank, and a healer disinterested in the content beyond the tome reward or daily roulette, and all were expected to perform at their best and succeed. Would this at all be possible? Or would it perhaps cause friction and complication for the shared task at hand?

THIS is what's very real right now, and we avid, endgame PvPers are the Savage-ready DPS at a loss there.

I'm not selfish enough to suggest that PvP only be an endgame activity once more, but a degree of categorization and filtering is in order. As there is designated leveling content for PvE gameplay, so too should there be for PvP. A level 30, fresh into PvP will clearly have never seen level 50/60/70 abilities yet, and would generally function as more of a confusion for them than a benefit, and to expect skilled play with an unfamiliar kit isn't realistic. Once again, for perspective, before 4.0 when PvP was an endgame activity, one had plenty of time to become familiar with their job's weaponskills and abilities and how they were used at max level, and the same kit was used in PvP, albeit slightly different in application.

Anyone can learn, yes, and I would stand as proof of that personally, but the long road from 3.5 to now approaching 4.2 has not only shown that many simply don't learn (side note: I'm looking at you, still-reloading-before-battle-MCHs), and the changes to the PvP combat system overall in 4.0 have been a giant step backward in the need for players to learn to play well, and has instead encouraged "dice-roll" style mentalities, general apathy in favor of consolation/participation awards, disinterest and alienation from the once-dedicated, and worst of all, an alarming increase in the desire to cheat/exploit/bot and the number of players doing so.

Now, one might say "Well if you want high level PvP, go play the Feast or another game." Let me say this now: if I were a dev, "play another game" would be a huge insult and a challenge to deliver something that makes players WANT to choose my game for their desired content. A popular argument is that "FFXIV is a PvE oriented game" and I would say that limited mindset needs to go. PvP is here and has been here since as early as 2.1. It's just as much a part of this game as anything else more accepted among the players, and whether it's a personal dislike of it, lack of understanding, or a pure refusal to accept it, it's here in the game, and thus deserves proper support.

PvP was once an endgame activity, now opened up to leveling players (which IS good), but we don't allow leveling players into endgame raids. Why? Because raids are endgame content, designed for endgame-level players to challenge and enjoy. For those that might still argue that PvP is "side content", I counter your argument by saying that PvP utilizes the game's combat system to challenge players, much like combat-based PvE content. Simply trying to write it off as side content is a hollow point, and more opinion than fact.

With that said, I believe that for a healthier overall climate, and perhaps higher-skilled players (and by effect gameplay), PvP needs a proper endgame once more. I'm not saying split everything down the middle, or designate one type of mode or another as "pro/casual", but a distinction needs to be made between PvP-leveling content and perhaps PvP-"expert" content. Keep the XP and relative tome rewards for the "leveling" content, and properly award endgame rewards in engame PvP. Now those who are only interested in leveling can enjoy PvP with that focus in mind, and without being teamed with say, an endgame PvPer who may perhaps be more focused on competing seriously for their desired reason/reward, and this would facilitate both without either one imposing upon the other.

To you, SE devs, reps, and to the players alike, I ask you to please consider this.

**Etrius** · 12-31-2017 08:42 AM

I agree with all of this.

Every time a new patch comes, PvE players get dungeons, primals, raid tiers, etc. Crafters get new recipes and more stuff to do.

What do we PvP-focused players get?
We get to wait until PvE players get bored of their activities to do casual PvP and fill the queues again.

There's no incentive to do PvP, the system is flawed, which also demotivate people to even keep at it!

XIV's PvP at the moment is like an Early Access game: We get to test it until devs either abandon the project and leave it "as is" or until they realize that they need to fix it so everyone can enjoy and spread the word (or just wait until a new game that does it right releases).

Every time someone tells me: "Go play something else!" It saddens me a little bit because: 1. I love the series and 2. There's nothing else that picked my interest.

**uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu** · 12-31-2017 10:01 AM

Define endgame. Endgame requires progression (beginning and end), which pretty much what Feast is with tiers. There won't be many people on top, just like PvE, not many will do hardcore PvP. PvP premades are closest thing to party based endgame. A small group further divided by schedule and place is going to be a lot smaller.

Are you suggesting they make PvP an instanced part of MSQ? This would be the closest thing to progression or level-based I'd join in a heartbeat. I don't like feast as the system breaks my playstyle to dance with as many people I can. Atm I'm content to do whatever people can queue in frontline/rw. PvE is like meh, getting 8 ken dolls to dance with an ugly barbie (except Lakhsmi/Sophia ofc), it's fun for the story but nothing else.

Originally Posted by Etrius

Every time someone tells me: "Go play something else!" It saddens me a little bit because: 1. I love the series and 2. There's nothing else that picked my interest.

This resonates with me too.

**Zojha** · 12-31-2017 09:11 AM

That ship has pretty much sailed with the introduction of Feast, our oh-so-competitive E-sports mode intended to be the be-all-end-all of PvP. That is their idea of PvP endgame and high competition, they are unlikely to offer any other for the simple reason that it would compete with and detract from it.

The premise of it isn't even that bad - You make a mode, rate players and then match them according to their skill so that they can get a good and challenging match regardless of how skilled they are because the match will be even. It's a PvP game classic, employed thousands of times worldwide to create quality matches. It continuously falls flat because it lacks participation, which means you need to compromise matching quality for queue times and open the door to wintrading. And they killed the point of the rating system by skewing the ratings until Diamond to boot, all in the hopes of salvaging a lost cause.

Next you look at fixed party feast, think:"Great! Content for serious premades like statics in PvE!" and then realize the queue is deader than dead and there were seasons in which bronze rated people got into the top 30. The same would go for any other premade queue as well and I can already use my Nostradamus skills to tell you the new team registration queue SE is working on won't be considerably different.

Reduce team size to compensate for the low participation? It's already at 4, you can only reduce that thrice, the balancing is terrible and the kits are too shallow to make it interesting. This isn't Go which can cope with only one ability: To put down a stone on the field.

If they don't even work in Feast, you can forget about skill ratings in other modes and scratch skill as a possible way to create an endgame experience altogether. Use PvP rank as a possible proxy to give experienced players preferential matching? You only separate the new/leveling players and the bots that way, the latter of which would play with the veterans. I bet that would be huuugely popular.
Same goes for any other grind or experience measure, including a separate mode available for endgame players only. And with the skill split, there's no guarantee an endgame player will even know what the PvP skills do anyway.

What does that leave us with? A bleak prospect.
Feel free to hunt for the egg of columbus, but I'm not seeing any viable options. The best you'll get are grinding goalposts like the Right Fist of Rhalgr or Wings of Fire titles most likely.

**RiyahArp** · 12-31-2017 02:38 PM

So you want to queue split in order to get all the newbies/tome farmers out, and somehow think you have enough pro pvpers able to support a 48 person instance. Yeah you really havent though this through. The second week it would be out, you'd be making a lowbie alt just to get back into normie pvp.

**ThirdChild_ZKI** · 12-31-2017 03:47 PM