On toxicity in forums

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

stems from a current issue in our society where too many people have forgotten the second part to the old "sticks and stones" adage.

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That sticks and stones thing is utter nonsense is why. It is simply a placebo saying to try to help people cope with the negative emotional and mental affect verbal abuse can have.

Words have power. Words can never hurt is a lie we teach kids to try to tell themselves to bury the hurt and attempt to ignore it.

Not everyone has a strong mental state to cope with verbal abuse. I am not saying this about your situation btw just about that sticks and stones thing you mentioned.

It is a useless adage and just tries to sweep aside the problem of verbal abuse and the damage it can possibly cause to the victim of it.

And to my blacklist you go.

See how easy it is?

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

And to my blacklist you go.

See how easy it is?

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Did you ever think that maybe the reason why you got banned wasn't the fact that you told someone they were going to get votekicked for their abuse? Miste is right, words have power, and this idea that you can say whatever you want without consequence to yourself or others is misguided at best, dangerous at worst.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

And to my blacklist you go.

See how easy it is?

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Blacklist is a good tool yes, but it still doesn't stop the initial abuse before the blacklist happens.

I mean...you meant to point out blacklist is a solution right? You didn't actually blacklist me for just pointing out that that adage is useless did you? O.o

In general I've found that the "suck it up" and "thicker skin" types are the ones with the thinnest skin. A little empathy and compassion never hurt anyone, and part of growing is realizing that what you say and do to other people has a real effect. Nobody's perfect, and we'll all have days where we're snippy with someone because of what's going on with us, but what's important is trying your best to control it and defuse a situation if one arises.

As far as forums themselves, the only way to discourage the kind of hostile and low effort arguments we're thinking about is heavy moderation. Communities won't police themselves, and toxic people corrupt those around them by driving away reasonable people who are discouraged by the vitriol, and encouraging those that remain to play at the same level. Of course, heavy moderation brings its own set of problems. I always hear people say you'll get banned easily on these forums, but I've taken some hard stances over the past few years on controversial topics and I haven't seen a ban once. I think what's most important is, if you're going to make a strong statement, to make it in good faith and with a clear contribution to the discussion as opposed to flame bait or drive-by posting.

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Originally Posted by Miste

That sticks and stones thing is utter nonsense is why. It is simply a placebo saying to try to help people cope with the negative emotional and mental affect verbal abuse can have.

Words have power. Words can never hurt is a lie we teach kids to try to tell themselves to bury the hurt and attempt to ignore it.

Not everyone has a strong mental state to cope with verbal abuse. I am not saying this about your situation btw just about that sticks and stones thing you mentioned.

It is a useless adage and just tries to sweep aside the problem of verbal abuse and the damage it can possibly cause to the victim of it.

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Miste I don't think I've ever disagreed with you before, my brain doesn't know what to do. If it softens the blow at all know I made a character on Primal today so that I can someday run something with you!

Also I use 'you' in some of this post, it is not referring to you or any specific person, just the reader.

I strongly believe that equating (or even comparing) verbal abuse with actual physical harm is fundamentally wrong. There are certainly people out there in the world (and internet) who are so effected by words, spoken or written, that it can drive them to mental instability but the fault in that situation is still with the person who is letting someone else get to them that way.

Extreme cases of bullying aside there is just no comparison between someone harrassing you/calling you names/being 'a dick' online and walking up to you on the street and punching you in the face.

Do rude or insensitive comments sting sometimes? For sure. Part of growing up is learning to decide who you let close ebough to hurt you though and if your list includes forum users for a video game that you have never even met in real life then I think you need to evaluate your prioroties.

In the end I am very much behind the "sticks and stones" statement, especially when refering to annonymous online interactions. I am also proudly someone with "thicker skin" for this kind of thing and I don't think that automatically makes me a bad person. In my opinion telling someone they need to develop thicker skin is showing them compassion - better they hear that from me and give it some thought than prance through life unaware until they encounter someone actually meanspirited.

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Originally Posted by Miste

*snippers*

You didn't actually blacklist me for just pointing out that that adage is useless did you? O.o

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*laughs*

Miste, if she blacklisted you, she won't see your question.

Some folks say it's the power of being anonymous and that people act toxic because there is little or no consequences for being nasty. Perhaps, but I think the whole toxicity issue arises because, on the 'net, there's the monitor in the way.

Individuals register as less real online. They don't immediately register as people. They are words and avatars.

So, less empathy and compassion is shown. Whereas, if the individuals were in the same room, there would be less negative comments made.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

snip

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I know you were responding to Miste but I saw some of my language in your post so I wanted to address some of this. Intent is key, right? "Thicker Skin" or "Sticks and Stones" as statements have PR problems, because in my (granted, anecdotal) experience I most often see them being co-opted by jerks who use them as a shield to hide behind after they've said something offensive. I don't think anyone would reasonably say you should take every anonymous comment to heart, because you just can't live that way. We're not made for it.

But I'd also make the point that what is one person's extreme is not another's. Even a benign statement can be the straw that break's the camel's back, and all the armor in the world isn't impervious to cracks, tears, and whatever else. The opposition to "sticks and stones" I think comes from a place of understanding that you never quite know what someone's condition is and it's better to be aware that even off-hand or innocuous comments can have big impacts. By the same token, you shouldn't walk on eggshells all the time either or avoid giving criticism just because you might upset someone. We can't live that way either.

Personally I always try to temper my language and see if my tone comes across harshly when typing since it's easy to misconstrue things without a voice to give you that guidance.

I don't think there's any objective best way, and I don't think having a "sticks and stones" approach makes someone a bad person. I think it's more about recognizing that the hard knock approach has often been used to justify pretty harsh and insensitive behavior, and making sure that you aren't being that person yourself. You're right that part of growing is also recognizing what you should and shouldn't let get to you. Kacho's also right about monitors not being very good substitutes for people, on top of text not being a good substitute for body language and tone of voice.

Sidenote: all of this is why PR people get paid a lot of money. Communication is hard, especially on the internet.

Unfortunately people behave terribly on the internet. Anonymity seems to bring the very worst out in a lot of people. The constant negativity in this forum is sad but I've seen worse. Also, it does no good to speak up against the negativity. You will just get shouted down by those who enjoy the hate.

I tend to prefer the middle ground, honestly. Some posters do need 'thicker skin' and other posters need to take a step back and tone down their aggression from time to time.

The posters who are truly worthy of being taken seriously will be fairly 'middle of the road' and will be capable of agreeing to disagree.